RPG ULE Bolt

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  • PnueMagger

    #106
    Originally posted by RapidTransit
    Correct me if im wrong, but would a properly designed venturi, there always will be an advantage. I just think carbs, without a venturi and how crappy theyd work without em

    Whats going to be used to keep the bolt from nicking the next ball in line?

    I also wondered about making the rear tapered and taking from a performance valvetrain using beehive springs, which work well for high RPM's or in this case bps.

    But what matters most to move the ball? The amount of pressure or the velocity of air at a certain cfm?
    I'll try to be concise.
    1)Yes you're absolutly correct, Venturi flow is very effective but particularly only @ low pressures/velocities. Carbs are primes examples of this, they suck w/out venturi flow. At high pressures/velocities, flow head loss becomes expontialy greater (logrithmically i believe) snd effiecency can go down the crapper with even smooth finishes. Unfortunately frictionless flow is impossible. So at paintball pressures the only time venturi begins to add effective imporvement is in the higher end very LP guns, like the bolt shown earlier in this thread. All a venturiwill do @ high pressures is give more laminar (uniform) flow out the bolt head. Although probably not the best for HP high ROF, That has advantages and leads us to #4...

    4) Plain old F=ma and momentum balance. A certain amout of air mass @ a certain velocity has t amount of time to deliver x amount of energy. Forget blow forward/blowback/open/closed bolt debates. this is it...period. The main difference betwwen venturi and open is this. Venturi can deliver a more streamlined energy flow/transfer with laminar flow with less gas at higher velocity than a open faced bolt. When critical presuures/velocities are reached, Viscous flow dominates and cfm drops and air is wasted when you crank up the speed dial. Other than that it will have pretty much the same cfm @ lower and midrange pressures as an open face bolt while delivering a more streamlined (laminar) flow. This is the theory behind the Venturi bolt. And from low to high pressures an open face bolt can deliver a constant cfm all day long, just more turbulent, that's all. So I guess I would have to say cfm matters most, that is infact where the momentum is coming from; Mass*Velocity goes pretty much hand in hand with cfm. But as always there's a trillion other factors in the marker that impact bolt performance, including the shooter's style. Okay, maybe only a billion

    2) I talking more about the air impacting the ball in the breach. not so much the foamie or the next stacked ball. If you could have equal cfm delivered to the ball through two separate styled bolts but one has more linear momentum and laminar flow, which would be more efficient? Basically same as I just wrote above. The only thing that can be said for sure is that at higher pressures an open faced bolt is gentler on paint.

    3) could you elaboarate more on the idea, sounds interesting. What are you getting at? Like a Banana?
    Last edited by Guest; 01-20-2006, 07:05 PM.

    Comment

    • Beemer
      I could tell you but then.

      • Oct 2003
      • 3250

      #107
      you need to read more

      Originally posted by PnueMagger
      If I remember the Lvl 7 mag video correctly, TK talks a little about how their new Crown point barrel "gently released the ball" for more accurate shots. Basically, the driving idea behind a crown point barrel is that you'll relieve a great deal or turbulence from the front of the ball before it actually leaves the barrel. Man, TK was always ahead of the game, he knew what was up . The same is true about modern ported barrels, that the air pressure in front of (and behind) the ball acts @ lower pressure resulting in lower natural turbulence. This method is more modern and better performing way to lower the in-barrel turbulence.
      But remember way back in the day when almost all barrels were not ported? And how the J&J Brass barrels were sweet? They weren't ported and had the same bores and functionality of basically every other barrel back then. But they used a much nicer micro-honed finish, and brass (commonly known as a "self-lubricating" material). This is the kind of example i wanted to show, how if rougue could somehow micro-hone or get a glassy interior bolt surface, his bolt would benefit from time proven technology.
      It was thought at the time the Crown Point did something when it came out, but its all show no go. I like the shiny tips on mine.

      All porting does is waste your air and muffle the sound some.

      The funny thing about the visual descriptions in the pitch were that I beilieved them to be true in the 80's. I was convinced and sold them with that story. We actually had a pretty hot barrel way back then. No one liked the ringing though....

      AGD


      See this one

      Paintball Talk is the main forum for Automags.org. Here is where we talk about the sport of paintball in general and make announcements relating to the forum and website.


      Then this one

      Paintball Talk is the main forum for Automags.org. Here is where we talk about the sport of paintball in general and make announcements relating to the forum and website.


      And this one



      Welcome to AO

      Peace Out

      ___________

      Comment

      • RapidTransit
        E-Body Man
        • Jun 2004
        • 400

        #108
        Originally posted by PnueMagger
        3) could you elaboarate more on the idea, sounds interesting. What are you getting at? Like a Banana?
        Helllzz yeah!!
        I was thinking towards the back of the bolt.

        Small article on beehive springs http://carcraft.com/techarticles/116_0402_spring/
        Gun: AGD eMag with LvL10
        Cars: 1991 Lexus LS400. 1970 Plymouth 'Cuda 440-4, Auto, 1 of 816. 1970 Dodge Challenger 318 S/E, soon to be a 440-6 with a 5 speed, and painted Sublime green

        Comment

        • PnueMagger

          #109
          Originally posted by RapidTransit
          Helllzz yeah!!
          I was thinking towards the back of the bolt.

          Small article on beehive springs http://carcraft.com/techarticles/116_0402_spring/
          So instead of using the automag spring, you are going to use a beehive spring. It's illegal to shoot over 1000fps you know.
          Or use the behve spring behind the bolt to accelerate it
          Use the beehive as the bolt?
          I feel . I just cant visualize what you mean

          BTW: I just ordered a Finising kit from DuraCoat, and I'm finishing off the raw pieces on my marker I just finished building. http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=189992 Color scheme...Pink/Chrome. I think i'll call-it "lady-mag".

          Rougue-sorry for puting this in your Bolt Thread, I had to share it w/ AO!
          BTW-any updates on prototype 3? Try and use a beehive spring. I know you can pull it off!

          Comment

          • GT
            Automag?
            • Dec 2001
            • 5786

            #110
            Originally posted by PnueMagger
            If I remember the Lvl 7 mag video correctly, TK talks a little about how their new Crown point barrel "gently released the ball" for more accurate shots. Basically, the driving idea behind a crown point barrel is that you'll relieve a great deal or turbulence from the front of the ball before it actually leaves the barrel. Man, TK was always ahead of the game, he knew what was up



            You've never had a barrel break? I mean, crappy balls break all day long but I'm not really talking about that. Honing is the process of machining/finishing something to a specified tolereance, like a piston cylinder, or pb barrel. "Micro-honed" simply refers to micron ranged tolerances. I'm basically talking about the stock barrels and the low end value barrels on markers. Almost all (quality) after-market barrels do benefit from this.
            You still have not answered my question:

            Second, who does an does not make microhoned barrels? Heck what does micro hone mean from one company to the next?
            Trust me, you will not win this arguement. The only difference in barrels........... is price.
            FOR SALE
            on/off, sear, PROConnect
            AGD back bottle asa, laser logo

            Comment

            • WenULiVeUdiE
              Force of Nature Staff
              • Jan 2004
              • 1982

              #111
              Originally posted by GT
              Trust me, you will not win this arguement. The only difference in barrels........... is price.
              That's not entirely true. Those barrels that are held to higher tolerances should perform better. The bore should be more consistant throughout the length of the barrel. But that is quite minimal.
              Hey, look at that! It's Santa!

              Comment

              • PnueMagger

                #112
                Originally posted by GT
                Second, who does an does not make microhoned barrels? Heck what does micro hone mean from one company to the next?

                Trust me, you will not win this arguement. The only difference in barrels........... is price.
                I didn't know we were arguning. My bad.

                #1)Lots of company's make Micro-Honed barrels, and quite a few don't. Many Stock markers don't have micro honed barrels (Kingman, BE, VL, PMI, Dragun, etc.), spiral or straight rifled barrels (Thunderpig, CMI, Armson, etc.), and most generic brand value barrels. Just because a company "hones" a barrel does not mean it is "micro honed". Most of the generic and stock barrels I'm referring to are honed, but not micro-honed.
                I already 'splained what "micro honing" was and, although I do not work for these companies, as a consumer I would hope that they all know the meaning of micro honing too. (Honed does not necessarily mean micro-honed)

                Micron (n): 1E-6 meters
                Hone (n,v): A tool with a rotating abrasive tip for enlarging holes to precise dimensions.
                Micro-Honed (adj): duh...


                #2)What...What... How about length, bore, finish, and most importantly color! Even the porting is really important to the internal flow & turbulence. Do you think engineers just turn on a hand-drill, close their eyes, and see what kind of porting they can make today? Your second statement is moronic and I would love to see you to back that crap up by playing some kind of tourney w/ a $2.99 eBay barrel.
                On the same note though- I wold have to say that above $50-$60 all barrels perform pretty much the same. (unless you are using inserts for different bores/brands of paint). I shoot a 14" .691 or .692 [not sure anymore] Dye Excel. Not too expensive and performs like a dream even on rec paint.

                This thread is about bolt design n.e.ways
                Last edited by Guest; 01-21-2006, 09:47 PM.

                Comment

                • slade
                  Carpe Noctem
                  • Apr 2004
                  • 3442

                  #113
                  Originally posted by GT
                  Trust me, you will not win this arguement. The only difference in barrels........... is price.
                  the effect a barrel will have in comparison to hype and pricing is greatly exaggerated, true, but the barrel does matter. have you ever shot a stock freestyle barrel? even looked at one? ...id take a pvc pipe over it. most good barrels, however, will perform about the same, and shoot well... the only noticeable differences will be length/cosmetic, and maybe sound/efficiency.

                  Originally posted by PnueMagger
                  Even the porting is really important to the internal flow & turbulence. Do you think engineers just turn on a hand-drill, close their eyes, and see what kind of porting they can make today? Your second statement is moronic and I would love to see you to back that crap up by playing some kind of tourney w/ a $2.99 eBay barrel.
                  acutally, ive gotta argue with you there. people who design barrels basically do just take a drill to it in whatever pattern they think will work (or sell) well. you wont see any difference in accuracy from one bore design to the next, only efficiency, sound, and cosmetics.

                  i have a $4 ebay barrel. works fine.
                  xvalve, ule body, logic vert frame, WWA barrel
                  68/30 PE nitro tank
                  cp unimount
                  halo B

                  Comment

                  • Beemer
                    I could tell you but then.

                    • Oct 2003
                    • 3250

                    #114
                    Heres a live 1for YOU GT. 1 of the few that loves ya, not 1 of the million that hate

                    Originally posted by PnueMagger
                    This thread is about bolt design n.e.ways
                    This is about all ya got right till your post #106. You brought it up.

                    Man, I have to add "Im smarter then you in my Bio to.

                    Originally posted by PnueMagger
                    Even the porting is really important to the internal flow & turbulence. Do you think engineers just turn on a hand-drill, close their eyes, and see what kind of porting they can make today?
                    Yup I think thats exactly what they do. Got any proof or data from ANY barrel company that says how important the porting is or what exactly it does? Didnt think so.

                    Comment

                    • PnueMagger

                      #115
                      Originally posted by Beemer
                      Yup I think thats exactly what they do. Got any proof or data from ANY barrel company that says how important the porting is or what exactly it does? Didnt think so.
                      "Most barrels are ported (or vented), which means that holes are drilled into the front of the barrel allowing the propellant to dissipate, decreasing both the turbulence of the air column following the ball out of the barrel" - Straight From Wikipedia

                      "The purpose of porting is this, when you fire a paintball, the gas you are using wants to expand as quickly as possible. With this in mind, gas can and will get around the paintball when the paintball stops accelerating in the barrel. This causes turbulence in front of the ball when the ball exits the barrel. This may cause the ball to travel in other directions besides straight. Porting is added to help decrease this turbulence, by giving the gas a secondary escape route." - OtterSC Customs Modifications

                      "Even the porting is really important to the internal flow & turbulence." - PneuMagger (Post 113)

                      Edit: I ordered one of those Cheapo barrels once and i could shoot curveballs 4/5 shots and break 1/5! I like to shoot Marbs too. Could've come in handy in a bunker once or twice though.
                      Last edited by Guest; 01-23-2006, 06:16 AM.

                      Comment

                      • nippinout
                        FUSP
                        • Jan 2002
                        • 1231

                        #116
                        The bolt face itself adds to the minor losses within the gas passages.

                        What I am curious about is any time required for laminar flow to develop. I'm confused if we are talking about actual Venturi effect, or the misnamed BS hype with bolt face patterns. It seems like it is used in both instances in this thread. Why are we worrying about Venturi effect anyway? It's just the decrease in pressure and increase in velocity due to flow restriction. That's just simple conservation. It makes no sense to me to try to utilize a pressure gradient to increase efficiency.

                        Hell, we could even say that a blow forward has LESS loss at the boundary layer because the bolt is travelling forward at high speed.
                        BAM!
                        TNS2K2's Viagra Adventure!

                        Comment

                        • PnueMagger

                          #117
                          Originally posted by nippinout
                          What I am curious about is any time required for laminar flow to develop. ... That's just simple conservation. It makes no sense to me to try to utilize a pressure gradient to increase efficiency.

                          Hell, we could even say that a blow forward has LESS loss at the boundary layer because the bolt is travelling forward at high speed.
                          Hmmm. Never thought about it like that. good point. All the theory in the world doesn't help an argument if the thoery doesn't apply to a specific application.

                          So with the second statement.... All we need to do is get AGD to push this idea like WGP and SP pushed the Closed bolt thing. AGD with the comeback.

                          Comment

                          • Chronobreak
                            Rec Poster
                            • Mar 2003
                            • 5055

                            #118
                            Originally posted by PnueMagger
                            Hmmm. Never thought about it like that. good point. All the theory in the world doesn't help an argument if the thoery doesn't apply to a specific application.

                            So with the second statement.... All we need to do is get AGD to push this idea like WGP and SP pushed the Closed bolt thing. AGD with the comeback.
                            i think they tried that with the lvl10....

                            sean(spl) anything new?

                            Comment

                            • GT
                              Automag?
                              • Dec 2001
                              • 5786

                              #119
                              Originally posted by PnueMagger
                              "Most barrels are ported (or vented), which means that holes are drilled into the front of the barrel allowing the propellant to dissipate, decreasing both the turbulence of the air column following the ball out of the barrel" - Straight From Wikipedia

                              "The purpose of porting is this, when you fire a paintball, the gas you are using wants to expand as quickly as possible. With this in mind, gas can and will get around the paintball when the paintball stops accelerating in the barrel. This causes turbulence in front of the ball when the ball exits the barrel. This may cause the ball to travel in other directions besides straight. Porting is added to help decrease this turbulence, by giving the gas a secondary escape route." - OtterSC Customs Modifications

                              "Even the porting is really important to the internal flow & turbulence." - PneuMagger (Post 113)

                              Edit: I ordered one of those Cheapo barrels once and i could shoot curveballs 4/5 shots and break 1/5! I like to shoot Marbs too. Could've come in handy in a bunker once or twice though.

                              You posted from Wikipedia, some guy over at Otter, and yourself. You sir are truly, head and sholders above academia(GT, 2006)!


                              Originally posted by Beemer

                              Yup I think thats exactly what they do. Got any proof or data from ANY barrel company that says how important the porting is or what exactly it does? Didnt think so.

                              I think Beemer gets extra GT points today
                              FOR SALE
                              on/off, sear, PROConnect
                              AGD back bottle asa, laser logo

                              Comment

                              • AnthonyW
                                Registered User

                                • Jan 2004
                                • 155

                                #120
                                I think its time to post some news now RougeFactor :) . I just want to but something new for my mag.

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