Paint to Barrel match= Total Accuracy?

[lazyrider77]

well, i will admit that the Freak may decrease ball breakage. But, i still feel that a .002 increase or decrease in bore sizedoen not dramatically effect accuracy and that matching the paint that accurately is not even possible. As you point out, it is as accurate as any other well made barrel. However, my point about having such a large barrel was that even with small paint it is still accurate and it doesnt; break paint. To me, this seems disprove the notion that you need a tight barrel to paint match to shoot accurately.
However, i still can not say this for sure without owning a freak myself and then determining the results. so, i guess i will go to Smart Parts and ask them to give me one for free so that i can find out if it is effective or a scam and report this to the paintball world. i am sure they will be more than happy to comply.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by lazyrider77
However, i still can not say this for sure without owning a freak myself and then determining the results. so, i guess i will go to Smart Parts and ask them to give me one for free so that i can find out if it is effective or a scam and report this to the paintball world. i am sure they will be more than happy to comply.

I'm sure they will! Good plan!!! Go for it... Oh trust me, if it was a complete scam and didn't shoot well you would have heard it from me already.

[RT_Luver]

I got tired reading all that stuff,So i skipped it and came to a conclusion.....get a Smart Parts Feak w/ Stainless back,that way,u dont have to worry bouyt any thing,just as long as u gun is tuned for around field chrono,and u actually have paint,u dont gotta worry bout anything.

[Hasty8]

First of all, the basis behind this entire argument is that you are using similar paint in the same markers with the same pressure and everything else is identical. The only difference in fact is the barrels. In such an instance the paint to barrel match is crucial no matter how you slice it.

Simply put, take a barrel with an exact internal diameter of .070 and put two balls through it. One is .691 and the other is .682.

The first ball is going to travel substantially further and be more accurate simply because it hugs the walls of the barrel better then the smaller one.

The smaller ball will actually end up being in contact with almost 82% of the entire barrel wall. This allows air to pass it on its way out of the barrel. This results in less air pressure behind the pellet during the initial, and most crucial, 6 inches of barrel where the maximum amount of veloctiy is reached.

Unequal air pressure also means unequal force being placed on the ball at the moment of escape from the barrel. This means that the air moving faster past one side of the ball will create lower pressure on that side thereby allowing the ball to move not in a straight line but in the direction of the area of less pressure (see "basic principals of flight" for more information)

That is the principal behind the Freak system. This way, when you go to field A that uses a very small paint like Diablo Hellfire which averages .683 you can just chage the insert that best fits it. You would see the benefit in this if your regular field uses RPS Premium, which can go as high as .691.

As for the deal with checking just a few balls from each bag that also makes sense. Paintballs are made and packaged as they come off the line. This is a requirement for consistency. This way, one bad batch won't spoil a whole lot of paintballs. When you run just a few balls through your sleeve you are making an assumption that the rest of the balls are the same. That's taken for granted.

Now, that all being said let me also make this one thing clear. We are trying to take a ball and move it in a straight line. Ball don't like to do that kind of stuff. And air pressure, both in the marker and without, can greatly effect their flight patterns.

Okay. Now. How do I feel about it? I don't think that something like the freak system is really warranted if you constantly use the same type of paint. My field almost always has the same paint so I was able to finally find a barrel that fits it well but I do believe that paint-barrel match is a very important and integral part of paintball accuracy, provided everything else is equal.

[hitmanng]

The smaller ball will actually end up being in contact with almost 82% of the entire barrel wall. This allows air to pass it on its way out of the barrel. This results in less air pressure behind the pellet during the initial, and most crucial, 6 inches of barrel where the maximum amount of veloctiy is reached.

Unequal air pressure also means unequal force being placed on the ball at the moment of escape from the barrel. This means that the air moving faster past one side of the ball will create lower pressure on that side thereby allowing the ball to move not in a straight line but in the direction of the area of less pressure (see "basic principals of flight" for more information)

Actually your premiss is wrong. Based on the fluid dynamics and a sphere passing through air, there is a laminar flow area around the ball. This is based on the viscosity of the fliud (air), the size of the sphere (paintball), and the velosity of the sphere. I had a really good post before the crash but do not want to do the work and numbers again. The first post took hours of research. They say a picture is worth a thousand words so look at this.



This shows the laminar and turbulent area of a sphere going through a fluid. This is further complicated due to the accelerant in paintball being air. We really do not know what happens in the barrel. We know if the barrel is way too big it bounces around a little I think a longer barrel might equalize this. My point is it is all conjecture.
Oh well
Hitmanng
Forever newbie and killer of sacred cows

[cphilip]

Hitmanng loves the Freak! j/k

FYI: He and I and Yipe got into it real good over it way back then when they first came out. That was the good old days was it not guys?

[talls]

A well made barrel with paint that won't fit through it is as usless as a penis on a Back Steet Boy

That quote is going in the Sig.

[lazyrider77]

Originally posted by Hasty8

The first ball is going to travel substantially further and be more accurate simply because it hugs the walls of the barrel better then the smaller one.

Really? What does "substantially farther mean" How much more accurate is it? This is the whole problem. You can conclude that one ball is going to fit better, we all know this. But where is the data showing how much more accurate this makes the paintball and how much farther it goes? This data does not exist. How much smaller is the group at what range? You don't know, for all we know the effect could be negligible. If you increase accuracy from 5 balls in an inch circle at 20 yards to 5 balls in a 3/4 inch circle at 20 yards, have you really gained anything? It doesn't even matter right now because we don't even have any data on the supposed increased accuracy.
Furthermore, to say that it is ok to run a few balls through a sleeve is an accurate description of the whole case is not logical. Yes, paintball manufacturers have quality control, but when was the last time you saw a case of paint labeled as to the diameter? you don't see that, because each case has variations. the Freak limits you to .002' increments. So, when you measure a few balls, the implicit assumption is that no balls in that case vary beyond .002' of the representatives. this is just not true.
as discussed earlier, the Freak may help you reduce ball breakge and that is very valuable, but i still think it is unwarranted to describe it as increasing accuracy over any other well made barrel.

oh, and cphillip- i was in on those discussions back when the Freak came out, before AO moved to the new server. i remember arguing with you then and i was actually looking forward to getting back into it. i think the results of this discussion where much better though. so, thanks.

[cphilip]

Oh yea! Now I remember. Was that fun or what! I think it started over a question of which to buy first the Warp or The Freak and it just went downhill from there into a Freak or not fight somehow. Me and Yipe got into it and I ended up having to apologize to him or something like that.

ps: I won! He he he he he he he

[Hasty8]

hitman...

your example is flawed in that it assumes the "fluid" is traveling around the "object" equally.

In a perfect fit situation this would not apply as the pellet would litterlly form a seal thus preventing any gas from escaping from behind the paintball.

With an imperfect fit, where there is a gap between the paintball shell and the internal wall of the barrel this will allow for pressure drop off. Why? Because the gap allows air to escape. The aire will be presented with less pressure at that point because it does not need to push the paintball as well so it can flow around the paintball thereby creating a zone of lower pressure (faster traveling air creates less pressure)

As for test data I'll do some testing this weekend using paints of different diameter on the same barrel in the same marker at the same pressure. It may turn out that I'm completely wrong but if I remember my physics right a better seal in the barrel may translate into better accuracy and distance. Of course, the only way to truly test that is to do it in a vacuum because we are trying to move a sphere through a gas which is not that easy at all. Wind patterns could have an adverse effect on game play as I am sure we are all aware.

My point is that paint to barrel match is very important. While the difference may be negligable there is a definate boon in having an accurate, or at least moderately close, paint to barrel match.

Long story short, you do not want to be shooting .682 diameter paint through a Taso Eliminator alum barrel which has an advertised bore of .691. It would be like rolling a spitball downthe barrel of a tank.

I'll post the results of my "tests" in the tech forum, if I even get a chance to do it this weekend.

Lazyrider - You're right. The difference may be negligable. Hopefully we'll have a better idea after I get a chance to test my hypothesis.

[lazyrider77]

look, Hasty, as i said earlier, i shoot all varieties of paint through a .696 AA on a shocker and don't notice substantial difference with any of them.
i think your tests are going to be flawed, as you said they need to be done in a vaccuum. how are you going to ensure exact same conditions every shot? if these resutls can't be replicated in the real world, what is the point of them anyway?