Emag and Retro valve triggers in NPPL?

[nutz]

i do know the difference between autoresponse trigger...

im talking about sweet spoting... when im at my local field and i run out of paint, i usually find a bunker with a less experienced player and show them how to shoot the emag fast and help them out a little. well last time i was with one i was showing him how to sweet spot the emag and the ref comes over and says excuse me but no full auto at this field, so i raise my arm and walk off the field to where the ref is standing. i go this is not full auto, i am using the sweet spot in my reactive trigger. i left him shoot my gun and show him how to do it and hes like ah i see what u were doing. after this he starts to question wether he would allow me to play with it in a tourny. i try to explain its still one pull per shot but he refuses to believe me...

this happens many times and many different ways.. im looking for if i can do this in a tourny or not

[SlipknotX556]

Responce trigger is when you pull the trigger back it fires on ball, when you release the trigger it fired another. Also I dont think its illegal to use RT's or Emags in the NPPL tournys because the manaul mode and Electric mode and Hybird mode all for ONE ball when the trigger is pulled.

[Army]

They are legal, since the bolt is fully locked by the sear before release, requiring another full pull of the trigger.

Even sweet-spotting lets the bolt lock on the sear fully. If the bolt is NOT locked, the gun short-strokes and you will chop.

[nutz]

thanks for giving me a little more info... i think i know now... next time i got to a tourny i will ask about it before we play

[shartley]

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37412

[thei3ug]

all of this was determined years ago. automag RTs are allowed because they do not force the player into sweet spotting.

Forced trigger returns, as in Reflex kits and tippmann RT kits are not allowed because they are automatic sweet spotters, no ifs ans or butts.

"stroking" is a different issue, which I think is a crap rule that needs to be reworded. The problem is for every "push and return" movement on a "stroke", you're getting two balls. But still there is nothing inherintly illegal about the trigger setup. You're now making a way of activating the trigger illegal. It's akin in my eyes to saying that certain poses are illegal.

What I want to know is whether recoil bounce is allowed, where the action of the marker, when the trigger is held right, can actually cause a simulated "bounce." It used to be, but it was iffy when were shipping excaliburs with it tuned that way.

[Ityl]

I believe what determines it is if the ref asks you to pull the trigger once that only one ball must be fired. So you can sweet spot it, as long as when you want to fire one ball, only one ball is fired, so if it is too reactive, it's illegal.

[Army]

A check of the Pan-Am and NPPL rules shows that they do not prohibit "sweet-spotting" or rate of fire, and only require one shot for one pull of the trigger

In order for the Automag valve to discharge correctly, the bolt must be fully returned to the rear, and the on/off valve to have dumped air into the firing chamber. When the sear releases the bolt, another complete cycle will occur.

Bouncing still allows the bolt to sear lock, and the on/off to work as designed. You may not be physically pointing your finger away from the trigger, for the RT valve has done that for you by overpowering the pressure from your finger. When the RT pressure has ceased, your finger again pulls the trigger just by you NOW having more pressure against it than the on/off and sear can withstand.

Any way you look at it, it is still a full pull and release. Your finger MUST pull the trigger for each shot.

[RT_Luver]

I dont know about everyone else(and apperently it shows) but I like the double trigger look better then the blade trigger look for some reason, so I'm set when I get my extreme. I dont have to get another trigger,lol

[nutz]

this is a very unknown and inconclusive subject i think... possibly tom can shed light on this.


i do like what armys saying tho... lol

[Oddball]

E-mags and RT/ReTro's are 100% legal at every toury I have ever been too. Our team has been checked twice for being full auto (Timmy at Cal-Jam last year and Butch at Challenge Cup last week). Both were in Electonic mode, not hybride (sp?), and both were legal. The refs were just not use to seeing ppl shot so fast. Hybride mode is also legal at tourys. I went to the IAO last year and Mardi Gras (which uses NPPL rules) this year with no issues reguarding E-mags. Well except that some refs don't know to chrono them in manual. I am not really sure what "stroking" the trigger is but I guess it is the same as "fanning" the trigger.

[blnk162]

Originally posted by Temo Vryce
OK let me say something that might make it a little clearer for you guys. They are talking about a complete trigger pull, (hold for a sec) and release. If the marker fires a single round then it is legal. They are stating that Burst, FullAuto, Double Fire, Turbo and othe fancy modes are not legal. The NPPL has stated that the Automag RT is a legal marker and therefore the RetroValve and all markers using it are legal for play. I hope this help to clarify it for you.

You dont have to hold it for a second considering how people are shooting at 12bps..

[Alli_Delta]

Definition of a trigger pull

First of all I see a lot of confusion in the terms all of you are using here... Allow me to put in my ten pence (Yes I'm English and I'm a PA qualified ref.)

Semi-auto: One trigger pull = 1 shot

Trigger pull: The action of moving the trigger from the fully forward position to the fully depressed state and releasing the trigger to the fully forward position.

Trigger bounce: Trigger bounce is not exclusively limited to the emag. Trigger bounce can and will occur on any marker that has a light enough trigger and sufficient vibration to cause the trigger to become pulled again by the recoil of firing the marker. This mainly occurs on electronic markers.

Reactive trigger: A reactive trigger comes under the following. It is an assisted trigger, You need to pull say 4 lb's of pressure on the trigger to make the marker fire, then the marker pushes the trigger back with a return force of say 7 lb's. This resets the mechanism of the trigger then because the trigger only takes 4 lb's of pressure to pull, the marker fires again. However if you pull and hold the trigger firmly it will only discharge 1 shot. The following markers MAY have reactive triggers depending on the model: Tippman Model98 (With reactive trigger kit) Tippman A5 (with reactive trigger kit) Automag RT, Automag RT pro, Automag Emag.

The other trigger you guys have been metioning is the old 1 pull 2 shots. You pull the trigger the marker fires you release the trigger the marker fires again. This type of trigger is NOT tourny legal.

Sweet spotting: This again refers to reactive triggers and electronic markers that are suffering from trigger bounce. I have an emag and if I turn the output pressure from my air system to around the 1000 psi area I can sustain around 18 Bps very easily using the reactive trigger mode. The actual meaning of sweet spotting is holding the trigger in such a way that the marker appears to fire fully automatically however if you were to look at the trigger you would see that it is actually moving back and forth for every shot. Sweet spotting can also refer to an electronic marker ie. Timmy or EBlade that has such a short trigger pull that the marker again fires very quickly due to the vibration caused by the cycling of the marker This IS trigger bounce and is Illegal In the UK, However you will need to verify this with the governing body of the tourny you are playing.

In the uk we have also gone one step further and banned reactive triggers altogether from tourny play, on the grounds that the marker is "assisting" with the pulling of the trigger.

Hope some of this helps try and clear the fog of bounging and reactive triggers.

[GT]

Re: Definition of a trigger pull

Originally posted by Alli_Delta
First of all I see a lot of confusion in the terms all of you are using here... Allow me to put in my ten pence (Yes I'm English and I'm a PA qualified ref.)

I am neither, however I can read dates on how old threads are...

[felony]

i was just playing in local tourny and was at the chrono station when a ref brought this up. he kindly asked me to let him shoot it to check for a sweet spot and i let him have it. he said there, lookin at the trigger and pulling it in every whcih way to make it fire illegally in manual mode.

i sat there and watched him put 150% effort into making my marker bounce so to speak and was like... uh i dont think ill be doin that in a game.

long story short, we got a real ref in there and he said just so you cant hold it and easily get a sweetspot that it is unavoidable with mags and that is pretty darn true.

Emags are legal. I do not think AGD would go as far as to make a marker like that and produce it not the specs of the current rules w/o letting the public know. that would just be silly

dan