Cocker Nonsense...

[Scorch]

This is an insterseting question

I'm another guy that had a Mag (and I still miss my RT) but changed, eventually, to a cocker.

I shot more than 60k shots from RT during the 7 months I had it. I am more than willing to blame the NitroDuck airsystem, but I never saw better than +/- 2 or 3 consistency. With the odd +/- 5 variation.

My Angel was a little better with more consistent +/-2 with very little variation. I was using a MacDev Conquest and Gladiator by then.

Now my first cocker was an Evolution X... yes a good first choice but I was a little nervous about shooting something with all that plumbing even though my playing experience with it was stellar from the start.

Ok... the real meat of the issue... Consistency. My EvoX and my current Sonic Cockers shoot +/-1 or better. I completely believe that the mag will match accuracy with any other marker if they are shooting the same velocity.

The problem in my estimation is that a accurate grouping of shots and an accurate first shot come from predictable and consistent velocity.

I have said it before... When I see an Emag shoot four shots at +/-1 after a game to what it shot going on the field, I will buy one. I really do want to own a mag again.

I think it will take a new valve design to do it.

Scorch

[Nitroduck]

Whenever i ran my mag on n2 preset , and correct paint match i got +/- 3 FPS over chrono. On my mag with ajustable tank ,i'd get +/- 1 FPS

Now having said that , i run a preset on my cocker , and use 32* seconds paint which vary widely in bore size and i get +/- 1 FPS.

[HyperSnyper]

MARKETING BS !!!

Im not AGD, but I will try my best to fill his shoes.

First of all, I dont believe Tom would reply to this thread in anyway. For a large industry leader to discredit the works of another Industry leader would create a tension (maybe even a marketing war)between the two since sales will flutuate. Plus, to my understandings, Tom and Budd are great friends. The dynamics of each gun, I believe Tom and Budd will leave to the consumers to find out for themselves. I dont believe there will even be a Paintball mudslinging with one leader saying this leaders products suck. NO WAY.

As for accuracy, Mag vs Cocker, here is my long and researched view on it (get a pillow ready, you might fall asleep ZZZzzzZZZ).

First of all, the Closed Bolt vs Open Bolt Myth BS. Its exactly that BS. It has been proven by many online bodies FALSE. Warpig has discredidted the fact that closed bolt shoots better than open (I wonder if they lost advertising from WGP LOL). This was an orignal myth that since the marker is closed bolt like a pump, it will shoot just as accurate.

Forums on Warpig, Paintball City, and I think PBnation have had individuals who have done private testing, bechmounted various guns (Opens: Spyders, Tippmans, Mags Closed: Cocker, Shocker) to find out they all had the same accuracy and range, using the same barrel and air system on every gun. It came down to just the recoil of each gun that contributed to deviation in the aiming which caused inaccuracy. And yes, the truth, even Spyders can be JUST AS ACCURATE as our Guns and other Highend guns like the cocker and Angel.

SO THERE WE GO CLOSED BOLT IS BS.

As for accuracy on the Benchmount, all guns should be the same given the same barrel and airsystem. All a marker is, is a pneumatic device designed to propel a gelatin projectile. If each device is given a the same consistent air pressure with a smooth barrel which will seal and propel the ball out, then all will shoot the same.

Go to PBStars review on High end Mrkers and see the paint spread each gun did at 25 then 40 yards http://www.pbstar.com/semiauto1.html and see for yourself how the markers shot up in terms of consistency and benchmounted accuracy tests.

Heres a heads up, this was the farther test at 40 yards. Heres the measurements each gun did, it will be given in inches from the middle of the paint goo o the target:

AGD Classic Mag: (Up/Down) 8.5 (Left/Right) 3/5.5
AGD E-Mag: (Up/Down) 9 (Left/Right) 9/4
WDP Angel: (Up/Down) 6/9 (Left/Right) 7/2
SP SHocker: (Up/Down) 10 (Left/Right) 4
WGP Autococker: (Up/Down) 9 ---> 23 (Left/Right) 9

Show that to your friend if you like, or show him the link. As you can see, the CLASSIC MAG BEAT EVERYONE in terms of average accuracy in vertical and horizontal deviation (EVEN THE EMAG also).

Remember that all these guns were benchmounted, unless you have arms like a vice, dont exoect to get the same accuracy.

Dont fall to the marketing hype. Just because some corporate advertiser says this gun shoots better than that gun, dont believe them. Some stores are biased and sell majority Cockers (like mine) and believe that the COcker has better range and accuracy them other guns (maybe because they got a good deal on a Pallet of Cockers and need to liquidate them maybe... hmmm...).

Im just so sick of people telling me, "Man get a Cocker, its way better than that Mag". BS. The Cocker/Closed bolt myth on accuracy is a myth, a placebo in the industry that has made WGP alot of money (Too bad Tom didnt hop in the bandwagon and say something like Blow forwards shoot better... but them again, I respect him for not taking advantage of paintbalers).

Hope this helps, and for those who fell asleep reading this... WAKE UP !!! LoL.

-Hyper

[Minimag4me]

about the e-mag inaccuracy(darkripper i think) the "high" end air system you have may be your problem. If it is not clean it wont shoot consistantly. WGP has excelent regs on stock cockers, they stabilize co2 very well and let almost no liquid through. If the guns have the same velocity, air system, reg...

[AutoMaggot]

Whoever said cockers have kick doesnt know cockers very well... I've owned quite a few markers... Ive gone from two mags, to an ANS GenX, to a Dark Angel LED, to an E-Mag, and now im back to a totally custom STO... the only thing stock is the gas block, ASA, and body... So I have had ample time to find what I like better... When a cocker is properly timed, that is: Hammer lug adjudted to its prime, LPR sweetspotted, and with a nice low pressure off the bolt, by the time you feel anything move on the gun, the ball has been released out of the barrel... moreover, when you pull the trigger on a mag, you tend to feel the body lurch forward, as the bolt kicks the paint... giving your second rapid shot a little misdirection. On a note of consistency, the last three markers I've owned (the angel, emag, and STO), all were run on my brand new 88/45 Max Flow... Best from the Emag I ever got was +/- 5... and this was with a freak system mind you... Last weekend I hit a string from the STO of 268, 268, 268, 269... Hell, I'd take a video of it to back that claim up... and that, my friend, is where a properly tuned cocker can be more accurate than a mag... in terms of distance, the ball stays on course thanks to the breach area being totally enclosed when the marker fires. No excess gas can surround the ball and kick back through the firing mechanism... the same amount of air hits the same space on the ball time and time again. And, dont flame, but LP does have its advantages... I run a Superfly with a really heaver hammer/spring combo and a slick glass-packed Evo RAM... my bolt shoots a ball at around 45 PSI... Therefore, it uses more evenly dispersed air which gently pushes it at an accelerating rate through the barrel.... where as a mag fires, and the ball is finsihed excellerating in just a few inches...

[jobo_18]

Re: This is an insterseting question

I shot more than 60k shots from RT during the 7 months I had it. I am more than willing to blame the NitroDuck airsystem, but I never saw better than +/- 2 or 3 consistency. With the odd +/- 5 variation.


i'm running a nitro duck 68 3k, last weekend at the skirmish 5-man winterwars i was getting +,- 3 fps with occasional spikes up to 4. my little brother has a cocker,d i'll admit that it is more accurate, but i laugh when we play and it's not the one day a month that his cocker decides to work. accuracy doesn't mean anything if the gun doesn't want to play.

[thecompany]

"Doesn't want to play" has everything to do with the user and nothing to do with the marker. No 'Cocker, or any other marker for that matter, ever just "goes bad" without the direct intervention of the user. Granted, it happens more often with 'Cockers, but that's because there is more to the systems of the marker, and therefore more for the user to not know enough about and to mess up (or let mess up).

[DarkRipper]

Originally posted by Minimag4me
about the e-mag inaccuracy(darkripper i think) the "high" end air system you have may be your problem. If it is not clean it wont shoot consistantly. WGP has excelent regs on stock cockers, they stabilize co2 very well and let almost no liquid through. If the guns have the same velocity, air system, reg...

Air system was clean.


DR

[Minimag4me]

Automaggot i said that...

i was referring to the second shot being affected by the kick about the back block and bolt moving back. I have owned a cocker(99 and wasnt low pressure or anything) and my bro has a 00. I know the kick is lessened on low pressure cockers i just have no experience with those. The kick is still there though but you are right the first shot isnt affected.

[Major Ho]

Re: MARKETING BS !!!

Originally posted by HyperSnyper
Im not AGD, but I will try my best to fill his shoes.
-Hyper

No one said you had to...

[laysomepaint]

"And, dont flame, but LP does have its advantages... I run a Superfly with a really heaver hammer/spring combo and a slick glass-packed Evo RAM... my bolt shoots a ball at around 45 PSI... Therefore, it uses more evenly dispersed air which gently pushes it at an accelerating rate through the barrel.... where as a mag fires, and the ball is finsihed excellerating in just a few inches..."

not flaming...

actually, because the mag releases the air so slowly, the same advantage that you claim LP gives, the mag gets. Ive heard from someone that actually tested this(dont know about tom kaye's results), and an automag has an average barrel pressure of around 45 psi...(hehe). PBJosh(on here, pbnation, and god knows what else) did the test. Therefore, the only thing the lp is doing for your cocker compared to a mag is efficiency.

the only way i see to make the mag more accurate is to change it from blow forward to pneumatic. Just move the piston mechanism in the bolt to the powertube, and modify it a bit(to keep the benefits of low barrel pressure) and use a bolt that is pretty much a hole, with maybe a venturi. You woudn't need a foamie if the ram is running at a low enough pressure. btw, this would make it more accurate because it would have less kick then a cocker(no hammer moving around, AND the bolt is moving with less force) and provide a bit more weight to absorb that kick.

actually, the mag should be more consistent. It uses a preset amount of air every time, instead of a poppet valve which is hit open, then closes..(actually, im not sure that this is actually true in practice, warpig tells me this, and 90% of the time theyre right.)

[liigod]

Yes i understand what you all say about yer mags being sick and mags are sick. I like mags. But my f5 shoots straighter. Why?! i have no idea, it makes no sense. But it does.

[renegade2k]

i dont know if some one said this but warpig did a test on this and proved it a myth

[HyperSnyper]

Hey,

Maybe we should start making our own rumors about blow forwards. We can say that blowforwards get more range, since the bolt is blowing "forward", as opposed to blowing it "back", it sends the ball out more "forward" and farther.

Add alot of tech talk and jargon, and the blind masses will believe. Heck, TK will even make a pretty penny of this.

LoL

-Hyper