Oh Joy it must be time near election time again

[PumpPlayer]

Not any more or less human. Different.

Men and women differ physiologically and, quite arguably, intellectually as well.
Health and life insurance costs and benefits are different for men than they are for women.
Is it somehow calling men less human by charging them more for life insurance because they're statistically more likely to die at a younger age? I don't think so.

When you can prove to me that a two-year-old has the intellectual capacity to match wits with me, then we'll give the two-year-old my job and let them take care of me. Sound cool?


You gotta draw the line somewhere and it might as well be on or around the age at which you graduate from High School.


EDIT: Careful with supporting relativism in all matters. Relativism has a tendancy to come around and bite you on the rear.

[OneEyedPimp]

I don't think OneEyedPimp particularly knows exactly what he's for or against. I say that not to sound insulting but to open up a line of logic with the goal of showing why we set seemingly arbitrary ages to perform certain actions legally.

Do so, as I have been arguing this for years. I honestly see no reason for age laws, as well as taxes, import laws, gun laws, driving laws, etc etc. I am against most laws out there not because they are necessarily wrong, but because we just waste money on them.

OEP is againt age laws because he feels that age is no reliable indication of maturity. I agree that age and maturity bear verey little correlation but the fact remains that we must still set some cutoff point. Using suffrance as an example, it's readily apparent that there are certain factors which are required before one can vote. Citizenship, of course, and I doubt anyone would argue with that requirement. Gender and race have been purged from the system as well as ownership of land. Another requirement is, supposedly, the ability to make a conscious, fully-informed decision. You can argue all you want as to when a human being gains that ability but the age of 18 isn't that bad of a benchmark. Another reason for the age is life expectancy and child mortality. It's not so much of an issue anymore, but 150 years ago when cholera, measles and various other maladies claimed roughly 1 in 3 children, it was a very big deal. The last has to do with self-sufficiency and social responsibility. Children dependant upon their parents have very little social responsibility. They don't pay taxes and, until their teenage years, can't even hold a job. Their sense of value in a leader is skewed because they don't have to pay for the cost of that leadership. There is a reason why the age of suffrance coicides with the age of taxation.

While taxation is the BIGGEST thing that I am against, I am not against age laws because of my age, but rather because there is no need for them. I just dont see the need of a nation-wide juristiction on age, the individual families should make that descision.

I said before that OEP is misguided in placing his criticism of the system. Like any young person, he is overwhelmed with rage when confronted with one simple phrase.

"Because I said so."

He sees age laws as being a state form of "because I said so". The perception is not unwarranted, but it is also not correct. I can go on and on regarding reasons for age laws, but others have summed it up quite well. Suffice to say that cognition and logic are the benchmarks and because there is no way to test for maturity, we must use age requirements as an approximation.

Why must we test for maturity? Should we have a test for maturity before you can vote? Before you can choose to move? Before you can buy certain drugs? Why, why, why?

This goes both ways, of course. OEP claims that abortion is wrong because life begins at conception. I wonder if he knows the full reasoning and logic behind the argument, though. Is he saying that because he knows it in his heart to be true or is he simply repeating that which he has heard from another source (Parent, book, Church organization, etc.)? The young are always good for the dispensation of facts but logic generally does not accompany them.

No, I know the full extent of the logic behind it. I formed it independently, if you can believe that. I also take it one step further, if inception is not the point at which life begins, then when is? At birth? At age 16? 18? 21? My logic goes as such: if restriction are placed on one group of individuals who are victims of their circumstances, they are sub-human and are treated as such.

I make no motion to call anyone unintelligent or even 'stupid', I simply challenge you to call your own bluff once in a while and examine your thoughts accordingly.


No one can accuse you of ignorance until you make a decision to stop learning. I advise you to never make that decision.

My thirst for knowledge is an unsatiable one. I am 16, go to high school and college and still am frusterated because I am not learning enough. That coupled with the fact that I am sub-human to all others around me, you can understand why I get frusterated with the current system in place.

[warbeak2099]

You do know that Piaget and other psychologists have found that decision making skills are not yet fully developed in young children. Minors have also not gone through enough schooling and education yet to understand sound decision making. Not to say that public schools are teaching that anymore, but that's the idea behind the laws.

I just don't think you get it. No matter what your beliefs are, the brain does not start fully developed. Children under 18 arebn't yet able to realize the full ramifications of their actions. That's why you see kids who do stupid things and get hurt on the internet. It's funny to watch, but in reality you're viewing science at work. Take some biology and psychology courses before you argue that minors should be allowed to have all this freedom. It's very obvious that you don't know what you're talking about right now. Hell, you most likely haven't developed your brain fully unless you're superhuman.

[PumpPlayer]

I never said we should test for maturity. I said there should be a benchmark for the indication of maturity. Big difference.


And I see now. OEP is an anarchist. He just hates all established doctrine!
Everything makes so much more sense now...



BTW, nice social plan. I'm sure it'd work out real well for us all.

[warbeak2099]

Yea I know lol, maybe we should just have no laws whatsoever. Oh wait, maybe we could all make decisions based on our "heat of the moment" feelings instead of listening to empirical evidence and real data. I'd love to live in that world... oh wait, we're going that way. OEP will most likely get his way if People like Bush or Kerry continue to hold the top spots in power. Flaming radicals never did anyone a bit of good. Just look at the French Revolution! Silly Robespierre.

[OneEyedPimp]

Not any more or less human. Different.

Much like black and white. Wonder what happened to all of those laws?

Men and women differ physiologically and, quite arguably, intellectually as well.
Health and life insurance costs and benefits are different for men than they are for women.
Is it somehow calling men less human by charging them more for life insurance because they're statistically more likely to die at a younger age? I don't think so.

Two different arguments here, you are referring to the private sector where you have a choice not to have that insurance, while I am referring to the government sector where laws are made telling private companies and people what they can and can't do.

When you can prove to me that a two-year-old has the intellectual capacity to match wits with me, then we'll give the two-year-old my job and let them take care of me. Sound cool?

I never said that it was possible for that to happen, obiously human nature requires nuturment until they are "older" (each definition varies). I am just against a universal age in which people define as the age in which all the brain power comes into use.

You gotta draw the line somewhere and it might as well be on or around the age at which you graduate from High School.

Never said we shoulden't, just that we all shouldent decide for everyone else.

EDIT: Careful with supporting relativism in all matters. Relativism has a tendancy to come around and bite you on the rear.

Everything is relative. Everything.

[OneEyedPimp]

I never said we should test for maturity. I said there should be a benchmark for the indication of maturity. Big difference.


And I see now. OEP is an anarchist. He just hates all established doctrine!
Everything makes so much more sense now...



BTW, nice social plan. I'm sure it'd work out real well for us all.

Adhem, I said as close to it as humanely possible while still having order. As such, as limited amount of laws as we can get by with.

Anarchy is a theology, it can never happen with human nature, as much as I would like. It was John Locke that said the more civilized we become, the more we are in chains(not an exact quote).

[OneEyedPimp]

Yea I know lol, maybe we should just have no laws whatsoever. Oh wait, maybe we could all make decisions based on our "heat of the moment" feelings instead of listening to empirical evidence and real data. I'd love to live in that world... oh wait, we're going that way. OEP will most likely get his way if People like Bush or Kerry continue to hold the top spots in power. Flaming radicals never did anyone a bit of good. Just look at the French Revolution! Silly Robespierre.

While we both agree that anarchy can never happen in a civilized society, you would be surprised how close we are to it when the only laws governing the land are those laid out in the constitution.

And no, I am not a flaming radical, just subscribe to a theology (I do not actually believe that any theology will ever work in today's world).

[Lohman446]

You may find my views radical, but they stem from my views on abortion. If you consider somone under 18 not an adult, you are putting them in a class that is sub-human by definition. By doing this you are saying that abortion is fine and more that someone under 18 is less, somehow, than that of someone over that age, and I am fundamentally against that. .

Umm... no I'm not, dont put words into my mouth

[OneEyedPimp]

Umm... no I'm not, dont put words into my mouth

Ok fine. I did not mean to imply you are doing that.

[ahellers]

listen man.
when i was your age i thought the same way you did (not about not being considerd human, but about thinking i would always have the same opinions on things). but when you get to a certin point (not necicarily in age but in responsability) then you realize being an adult is a whole different animal. there are so many stupid things that i did growing up that i didnt think were such a big deal at the time. the only thing that keeps me from going insane thinking about them is the knowage that i learned from them, maybe not at the time but certinly when i looked back at them.
the other thing that you will realize is that many of your ideas that you have; or had, are not new at all. remember there are countless people that have made the jorney before you, and they all have had ideas of there own, many just like yours. but also a huge majority have made it through life just fine the way it is... its a system it works.
t

[OneEyedPimp]

listen man.
when i was your age i thought the same way you did (not about not being considerd human, but about thinking i would always have the same opinions on things). but when you get to a certin point (not necicarily in age but in responsability) then you realize being an adult is a whole different animal. there are so many stupid things that i did growing up that i didnt think were such a big deal at the time. the only thing that keeps me from going insane thinking about them is the knowage that i learned from them, maybe not at the time but certinly when i looked back at them.
the other thing that you will realize is that many of your ideas that you have; or had, are not new at all. remember there are countless people that have made the jorney before you, and they all have had ideas of there own, many just like yours. but also a huge majority have made it through life just fine the way it is... its a system it works.
t

All relative and opinions. I never claimed that these ideas were new, or revolutionary, just that I would like to see them put into practice.

[Jonno06]

I haven't really read the rest of this thread, because well, i didn't want to.

but basically, I believe that if someone is old enough to be tried as an ADULT in the court of law, then they should be given the rights of an ADULT.

[OneEyedPimp]

I agree whole heartedly with that and it is my personal definion on age.

[ahellers]

I haven't really read the rest of this thread, because well, i didn't want to.

but basically, I believe that if someone is old enough to be tried as an ADULT in the court of law, then they should be given the rights of an ADULT.

well. i belive that 18 is the age when some one is "old enough" to be tried in a court of law as an adult. i know younger people are sometimes tried as adult but this is due to extenuating cercumstances (whew... big words i know i misspelled), and i dont know of any legislation that actully sets an age (other then 18) a person can be tried as an adult. so all things considerd thats not a very good bench mark at all.
t