How would you define

[Beemer]

True Semi or Semi? Can an e-gun be true semi? Isnt rapid fire semi if your finger is moving and the trig makes a full cycle?

[68magOwner]

true semi= semi, without any bounce/added shots

semi ideally=true semi= 1 shot every timy you pull the trigger

[Aeronautica86]

semi to me is one shot per trigger pull, where the finger has to move each time the trigger is pulled (ie no bounce)

so yes, a electro gun can be used as a true semi

[Z-man]

True Semi = 1 pull of the trigger, 1 shot at ANY ROF None of that hyper mode or ramping nonsence.

However you have to ask yourself, Do you consider other factors in determining semi auto? The RT bounce does aid your ROF by bouncing back the trigger BUT it CAN be tuned to NOT double fire. A tippmann trigger pull both in weight and length of pull is many times greater than that of an electronic marker and even with the electro being 100% semi the electro will allow for a greater ROF. How do you take that into account (if at all)? By our definitions, the pull length, pressure needed to fire the marker and the return force of the trigger are NOT factors in determining if a marker is a "true" semi auto. If I were to list marker/trigger designs (all in semi auto) based on max attanable ROF I would say:

#1- Electronic Triggers
#2- RT effect triggers (assuming it will NOT double fire)
#3- Non RT effect mech triggers

All semi auto, all fit the definition but there is a world of difference in their performance. Interesting questions....

Rapid-Fire is not even close to true semi... it's just in its own little world so most fields don't know what to do about it

[Beemer]

True Semi = 1 pull of the trigger, 1 shot at ANY ROF None of that hyper mode or ramping nonsence.

However you have to ask yourself, Do you consider other factors in determining semi auto? The RT bounce does aid your ROF by bouncing back the trigger BUT it CAN be tuned to NOT double fire. A tippmann trigger pull both in weight and length of pull is many times greater than that of an electronic marker and even with the electro being 100% semi the electro will allow for a greater ROF. How do you take that into account (if at all)? By our definitions, the pull length, pressure needed to fire the marker and the return force of the trigger are NOT factors in determining if a marker is a "true" semi auto. Well thats the point shouldnt they be or should they? If I were to list marker/trigger designs (all in semi auto) based on max attanable ROF I would say:

#1- Electronic Triggers
#2- RT effect triggers (assuming it will NOT double fire)
#3- Non RT effect mech triggers

All semi auto, all fit the definition but there is a world of difference in their performance. Interesting questions.... Yes semi but again what is True semi?

Rapid-Fire is not even close to true semi... it's just in its own little world so most fields don't know what to do about it Right not true semi but still semi non the less, correct? How can an e-gun be true semi???

Peace Out

[ShadowNife]

True semi to me is everytime you physically move to activate the trigger, the marker shoots one, single shot.

I dont think it matters how you activate it, how much effort it takes to activate it, how far you have to move to activate it. In this definition, if there was no modes or bounce on e-markers, then they are shooting true semi. If we start discerning how to activate the trigger, then we're not really breaking down into true semi or not, but rather mech or electro. I don't see why how you attain 1-pull 1-shot should matter unless you would like to bring up specific issues heh

good idea for a thread through, it'll be interesting to read the responses.

P.S., what do you mean "rapid fire"? I'm a bit confused on what you're referring to.

[Z-man]

Peace Out

I think that as far as "true semi" or "semi" the are one in the same in that they are ALL 1 pull, 1 shot. Any other aspects (bounce, pull length force needed to pull etc) have no bearing in that definition and I will tell you why I say that.

First off if semi auto means that only 1 ball is fired after each pull then the differences in what it takes to activate that are simply a matter of how well that system was made. What I mean is this.

----------------------------------

Trigger pull design 1

The trigger is large enough to fit 1 finger on it and you must pull it with 3 lbs of force to activate it. The length of the pull is 7 inches. 1 ball fires after the pull is complete.

Trigger pull design 2

The trigger is large enough to fit 3 fingers on it and you must pull it with 1 ounce of force to activate it. The length of the pull is 1 centimeter. 1 ball fires after the pull is complete.

----------------------------------

Each design is a semi automatic trigger mechanism BUT one trigger is better DESIGNED to fire faster. What makes a trigger semi auto has NOTHING to do with how easy it is to pull that trigger. Even if you were sporting a marker with a trigger that took 1 minute to pull every shot, that IS a semi automatic trigger system as long as only 1 shot is fired from that 1 pull.

What it comes down to is who has designed the best trigger that facilitates rapid semi automatic fire. The ultimate semi automatic trigger would be 1 in which the limiting factor was the person's impulse control of their finger. Anything that hampers that (trigger pull length, weight etc) is a separate factor that slows you the user down because of the triggers design and not because it is not a true semi automatic.

So while the Classic Mag and the E-Mag are both true semi automatic markers, the E-Mag has a trigger design that is better suited to faster rates of semi auto fire. The trigger pull is far less in both weight and length of the pull. It's a semi auto just like the Classic Mag and being able to pull it faster than the Classic Mag is a matter of improved design for a specific aspect of semi auto fire.

P.S., what do you mean "rapid fire"? I'm a bit confused on what you're referring to.

What is rapid-fire?

Reading
Z-man's Guide to Rapid-Fire

Video Demo
23bps Rapid-Rire Demo

As for it still being true semi I don't think you could weasel that one out. Yes it's not a mode you set the marker to but you are pull the the trigger (and holding that pull just like you would to hold the pull on a fully automatic marker) and the marker is firing more than 1 ball during the length of your pull. I think that the moment you can pull the trigger on the RT and make it fire more than 1 shot by finding that sweet spot it is no longer a semi auto marker.

The reason you can use it at fields very often is more a matter if lack of the refs understanding of what is happening. First off most refs are kids who grew up with eletros and trying to have them find the sweet spot on a trigger pull that is several lbs is like asking someone with cerebral palsy to assemble a watch. They have no idea how that ancient POS mech marker works and there is no way that is was you doing 23bps a second ago because it's not a DM7. Hence you can almost always utilize it in a game... until they catch on that is....

[going_home]

Semi

A semi is one of those big trucks that pull the big trailers.
You know, the ones you are always trying pass on the highway
so you can see whats up ahead.

[Beemer]

A semi is one of those big trucks that pull the big trailers.

That would be a True semi

What it comes down to is who has designed the best trigger that facilitates rapid semi automatic fire. The ultimate semi automatic trigger would be 1 in which the limiting factor was the person's impulse control of their finger.

Well whos or which one would that be. YOU have good impulse control when you rapid fire.

As for it still being true semi I don't think you could weasel that one out. Yes it's not a mode you set the marker to but you are pull the the trigger (and holding that pull just like you would to hold the pull on a fully automatic marker) and the marker is firing more than 1 ball during the length of your pull. I think that the moment you can pull the trigger on the RT and make it fire more than 1 shot by finding that sweet spot it is no longer a semi auto marker.

I disagree. FA is pull and hold or ramping. The on off has to do a Full cycle before it will fire again. the RT is a return assist not a pull assist. It pushes your finger back to the start position. No not true but semi non the less. Is it rapid, sweetspot or FA?

We know that the valve is capable of at least 34bps (meaning it's FULLY resetting each time) so how can it be fully resetting on one, and not the other?

Obviously the marker cannot shoot faster than the time it takes for the bolt to fire and reset. So, if that time for the spring to push the bolt back is constant, that MUST mean that during the slower rapid-fire in the video, the valve and bolt MUST reset

[Z-man]

I disagree. FA is pull and hold or ramping. The on off has to do a Full cycle before it will fire again. the RT is a return assist not a pull assist. It pushes your finger back to the start position. No not true but semi non the less. Is it rapid, sweetspot or FA?

Using my site on me are we? I won't dispute that the marker is fully cycleing each time it fires, that is understood. I am looking at it more from a conceptual level. Consider it like this:

Marker #1 has a full auto mode (like say the Viking in the video 31bps speed video). You pull the trigger and as long as you continue to pull the trigger, the marker will fire. You let go and the marker stops shooting. Full auto, real simple.

Marker #2 (our dear RT Mag) will also do this. You pull the trigger and hold it and as long as you continue to hold the trigger, the marker will fire. You let go and the marer stops shooting. How is this different than the Viking?


The difference is that the marker is taking care of everything, you are not actually defining each shot. How can I be so sure that you are not pulling every shot? Well I mean it isnt scientific by any means but I have trouble beliving that any human using 2 (or heck 3 fingers) is capable of sustaining a uniform and consistant string of 23 bps (much less 34bps) over ANY length of time. All you do when you rapid-fire is apply the necessary force to start and maintain the marker cycling itself. I am quite certain that if I added a rubber backstop and figured out the correct weight I could point an RT Mag up and rest a lead weight on the trigger and walk away while the marker rapid-fires. Bottom line is that you are not pulling each shot, the marker is dealing with that part.

I just think its crazy that Mags still get crap at tournies because of a so called bounce when ramping is allowed?

Very true but then again it comes down to how it is presented. For example the refs may not catch the ramping because either its a special mode that the player switches to or the refs are not able to catch. The same could be done with the RT bounce. Walk in with an RT Pro with a nice Max-Flo system turned down to 750-800psi. You won't be able to get that to fire multiple shots no matter how hard you try. Walk out on the field and crank up the input pressure to 950-1000psi. Tada! canned ramping at the twist of a knob.

But that is getting into another subject altogether (does ROF win games). Personally when I played with the NorCal AO group we didn't care who was using waht mode. Mighty Mike and his crazy ramping Timmy made me look like a sissy girl with the paint he could fling. No way in heaven it was anything near leagal. The difference was that because we were all friends, we didn't care. Instead of 1 Z-man on the field there were suddenly 2 to balence things out. I personally don't have issue playing with non tourny legal markers because the game still plays out the same.

[Beemer]

Good points. I guess a pull wt and return force has to be defined.

So You wouldnt define rapid fire as semi then?

[Z-man]

Good points. I guess a pull wt and return force has to be defined.

So You wouldnt define rapid fire as semi then?

No sadly I would not but to irritate all the punk elecro children I wouldn't call it full auto either . I would call it a perk to a wise investment in quality parts and a chance to give everyone a run for their lives.