Both sides of the fence or..?

[punkncat]

I was reading this article from APG:

http://apg.cfw2.com/article.asp?content_id=3636

and really don't know what to say. I am unsure if I can intelligently vocalize my feelings on his views on this.

In particular

What is "malicious overshooting?" In my opinion, when a player overshoots another, to the point where he could cause (or does cause) severe physical injury, the overshooting becomes malicious. The overshooting takes the game out of the situation and becomes an assault.

and then he goes on to cite an example, etc. and then

Let me explain that I fully support bunkering in tournaments. It's fun to watch, exhilarating to do, and painful to receive. That pain IS part of the sport, and something that you have come to terms with when you signed up! The hit or hits you may receive in a bunkering move executed upon you are a part of the game and are usually, not always, paintball legal. Why only "usually?" Malicious overshooting is not paintball legal.

In his own article he states how the speeds (FPS) that tournies are played do pose a hazard to your health. That we accept this as players and should just suck it up so to speak. But then goes on to say in essense that bunkering is fine, take em out, make em hurt...its all part of it. OH WAIT!!! That is cool unless the opposing players just happens to be in a different position that you thought or that you missed your target by inches while you are trying to bunker and THEN you are malicious and should be dealt with....?

Given the conditions of tourny games today isn't everyone just a smidge away from being malicious?
If this is the case should the speeds at which tournies are played in both F/BPS be reconsidered?

If every time we go to bunker someone or get an elimination the difference of inches is what seperates us from sporting fun and acceptable pain to performing an assault, maybe there needs to be a change in what is considered acceptable risk.

[Pyroboy597]

In relation to this article... last month some guy tried to get me arrested by the cops after I bunkered his 8 year old son on his armored chest plate. The guy punched me in the face and the police came to take him away, and he tried to tell the police that his son was maliciously assaulted by me and that he was just defending his son or something.

Overshooting is when it is OBVIOUS that a player is out and you still shoot him. I usually hit people more than once, but only when I cannot see the paint spot on them. The last thing I need is some smart-arse walking off as if he is hit and then shooting me on the way out.


EDITTED for poor grammar skillz

[stop whining buy a mag]

Uh, I couldn't really understand your post so I'll just say what I comprehended from his article.

While playing in a tournament, you accept the fact that paintballs flying at 204 mph can be dangerous. The line is drawn though when a player goes as far as hurting someone. Bunkering (I'm using the common definition that most paintballers know) is simply shooting someone at a close range. This could be more dangerous since the ball has had less time to slow down but it is rare that one or two balls will do enough damage to require a trip to ER.

Or if I had to sum it up more, people who are "on the field to hurt people" *cough Chris Lasoya cough* need to get out of the game. Paintball is not getting shot a couple times, calling out, and then taking 12 love shots in your back. If it was, few people would be playing it.

[Lohman446]

You know that the paintballs travel in excess of 200MPH.

You know that the markers shoot in excess of 15BPS.

You know close range movement is part of the game as it is played.

Resulting damage from inherent risk is hard to call. Now if you malicously stand there and continue putting balls on someone after it is clear they are eliminated, there is a problem.

In martials arts it was always understood that you might step into a sidekick, and it may very well kill you if you did. It was pretty obvious though there is a massive difference to an accidentally landed hit and maliciously landed one.

[jsdatjsd]

We shuld lobby to have the speeds in speedball raised to 300 mph. ANd all players must wear nothing but an athletic cup and goggles, no face mask. Just the goggles.

That way everyone would quit playing tourney and go back to woodsyball.

[SlartyBartFast]

It should be simple. Like every stupid discussion of rules and/or cheating, paintballers wring their hands over what is malicious/intentional and what is innocent/part of the game.

Remove the moral judgement, make a rule, give the rule a harrowing punishment, then enforce the rule.

If the rule doesn't have the desired effect, increase the puishment or make an exceptional rule for cases that CLEARLY go beyond what is tolerable (shooting of refs, knocking someone unconcious in a bunkering move with shots to the head).

For overshooting, decide on a number of shots broken on a live player. More, equals overshooting penalty. Less isn't. No moral discussion. Make the tolerance different for differnt levels of play.

Then, enforce all the rules that get broken to stay in the game. Then people might not be driven to bonus ball till opponents crawl from the field...

[SlartyBartFast]

In relation to this article... last month some guy tried to get me arrested by the cops after I bunkered his 8 year old son on his armored chest plate.

But, if you were playing rec, what you did was increadibly poor sportsmanship.

If you're in a game with 8 yr olds, you hold back, deliberately choose older targets, and NEVER bunker them. Leave the tournament attitude at the gate.

Unless the 8 yr old is increadibly good and your friends with the family...

[punkncat]

Uh, I couldn't really understand your post so I'll just say what I comprehended from his article.

While playing in a tournament, you accept the fact that paintballs flying at 204 mph can be dangerous. The line is drawn though when a player goes as far as hurting someone. Bunkering (I'm using the common definition that most paintballers know) is simply shooting someone at a close range. This could be more dangerous since the ball has had less time to slow down but it is rare that one or two balls will do enough damage to require a trip to ER.

Or if I had to sum it up more, people who are "on the field to hurt people" *cough Chris Lasoya cough* need to get out of the game. Paintball is not getting shot a couple times, calling out, and then taking 12 love shots in your back. If it was, few people would be playing it.

The point I took from the article was that its ok to run by and bunker someone so long as the shots hit them (say) in the arm. But the moment that same # of shots hit them in a sensitive area or happened to cause harm then you are being malicious.

Its not so much that I disagree with what the author is saying, its just that if you are going to set rules that allow bunkering and high rates of fire, then you must also accept the risk that people could get hurt. If you can't accept the risk of that level of play and have to draw such a blurry line as to what is malicious and what is not, then perhaps it (level of risk) should be lowered.

[Lohman446]

For overshooting, decide on a number of shots broken on a live player. More, equals overshooting penalty. Less isn't. No moral discussion. Make the tolerance different for differnt levels of play.

Then, enforce all the rules that get broken to stay in the game. Then people might not be driven to bonus ball till opponents crawl from the field...

Exactly, where I play it is more than three on a single target on an aggressive move within 20 ft. After that (aside from an eliminated player walking through a lane) its more then 4 after the player has turned towards the dead box.

[SlartyBartFast]

If you can't accept the risk of that level of play and have to draw such a blurry line as to what is malicious and what is not, then perhaps it (level of risk) should be lowered.

Blurry line? Other sports have penalties that are different (major/minor) only on whether injury was caused or not.

Intent or maliciousness has nothing to do with the rules.

[BigEvil]

If high ROF are part of the game,

and so is up close movement,

then it is only logical to lower the velocity of the paintballs. 280 fps is plenty for speedball. That extra 20fps can really make a difference.

[nixcamic]

ANd all players must wear nothing but an athletic cup and goggles, no face mask. Just the goggles.

Trust me, you wouldn't want to see me in just an athletic cup and goggles. If we wore nothing but that I dont think anyone would play paintball. (ok, well, I know a fiew people, but they wouldn't be playing for the paintball)

[mag_lover05]

or we could justmake them shoot no faster than 7 bps.

so then some skill is required, and overshooting is harder...

[Toll]

Fat suits are the wave of the future.

[SlartyBartFast]

If high ROF are part of the game,

And that IF is a big one. Quite frankly paintball is an imature sport that still hasn't defined itself.

Competition, and true sport, is based on testing ones skills within the LIMITS of the defined activity.

So before anyone whines about Paintball being technology based and all, consider this:
- How many "open class" racing series are there? Why do the big series (F1, Indy/Champ, NASCAR) all limit the hardware and technology?
- Why aren't aluminum bats allowed in paintball?
- Why is rugby clothing so tight?
- Why are golie pads limited in size, and sticks in curvature in hockey?
- Why are golf balls and their surfaces regulated in golf?

All to limit the effect of technology on the outcome and to truly test certain skills of the contestants.

Perhaps 15bps is where "high visibility" paintball will settle and stay. Perhaps not.

Yet, few are competing to create different leagues at the top level. Few at the top level are competing to build bush leagues.

Paintball, as an organised sport, is dysfunctional.