What do you guys think of Hamerhead Rifled Barrels?

[SR_matt]

i love how everyone is saying things like "this wont happen because its not supposed to" then the backing to their statments come from basic physics on paper, when was the last time something on paper worked out exactly as it was written? i know plenty of instances when well something is supposed to do one thing but hey it doesnt.

stop arguing over all this crap until someone does a good test of it that doesnt have errors in it, or if yall want to keep arguing over it you can start arguing over why paintball dont fly as far as they should on paper.

-matt

[Lohman446]

i love how everyone is saying things like "this wont happen because its not supposed to" then the backing to their statments come from basic physics on paper, when was the last time something on paper worked out exactly as it was written? i know plenty of instances when well something is supposed to do one thing but hey it doesnt.

stop arguing over all this crap until someone does a good test of it that doesnt have errors in it, or if yall want to keep arguing over it you can start arguing over why paintball dont fly as far as they should on paper.

-matt

Ok... TK spun an entire marker at a higher rate of RPMs than the Hammerhead could hope to achieve, fired the marker, and took high speed photos of the paintball as it left the marker - guess what. It *WASN'T* spinning outside of the marker. It has been proven. Various tests (Warpig stands out) have been done under reasonably controlled circumstances and shown without backspin no marker or barrel shoots with more range or accuracy than one of equivilant quality. So not only are those noting that it is nothing special using base knowledge in physics, they are also using paintball specific examples of testing.

[Desega]

ok that's it, this summer (can't realy test in the snow, I'd freez my buns off , I'll do a bench test, hammerhead vs. freak vs. whatever else i can find. I've got a longbow and a realy heavy vice, I'm even going to find another reg to put between the geddon and the mag valve, I'll even fit my old AIR valve to it as they are more consistant for slow shots. I will also put the paint through the sizzer so that I can use only balls that are about the same size. sound scientific enough?

This sounds like a good enough test to find trends it wont be conclusive but it will show accuracy trends. I would also throw a Redz Peperstick in the mix as its alot more comperable to the Hammerhead quality wize than the freak so it'd show the affect(or lack there of) of the rifleing better.

[Drizit]

Desega: I'm going to test every kit I can get my hands on. At the moment I have a freak and a hammerhead but I will endevor to get my hands on more if possible. Including some non kit type berrals if they can be found in the same bores.

SR_matt: I will do the tests as soon as I get time and get back to everyone.

Shane-O-Mac: I was under the impression that the geddon was a dual regulated system but I will defer to you in this However I will not agree that putting an extra high quality reg inline will add more variance to the results. Basic regulator mechanics say that for every reg you add in the system you reduce the variance by a factor of 10. So providing I don't start putting in crappy regs it will be more stable, it will slow down recharge rates but I don't care about that as I will be shooting one shot every few min. anyway.

I will get some reballs and do the test with them as well just to add that to the mix. Don't know why I would need to gut the fill nipple to hook up my scuba tank. If the scuba is hooked to the fill nipple all the time why this will keep the tank pressure constant essentially it adds 80FT.3 to the tank size, thus reducing the pressure drop per shot in the tank, and eliminating one more variable. Given I can't remove EVERY variable and there will be people out there who say I'm wrong and dumb because I couldn't eliminate EVERY variable and besides spinning paint does nothing... hey if spinning paint stops spinning as soon as it leaves the barrel how do the flatline and apex work?

Oh and I read that link years ago when tom first posted it

[SR_matt]

Ok... TK spun an entire marker at a higher rate of RPMs than the Hammerhead could hope to achieve, fired the marker, and took high speed photos of the paintball as it left the marker - guess what. It *WASN'T* spinning outside of the marker. It has been proven. Various tests (Warpig stands out) have been done under reasonably controlled circumstances and shown without backspin no marker or barrel shoots with more range or accuracy than one of equivilant quality. So not only are those noting that it is nothing special using base knowledge in physics, they are also using paintball specific examples of testing.

ok well that is still different than having something touching the balls that force them to spin as apposed to a flat tube spinning.

i am not saying that the hammer head give better range, or better acuracy, i am saying it puts a consistant spin on the balls so the balls are more predictible (i guess you coudl cann that better accuracy but it really depends on how you look at it)

just out of curosity have you used a hammer head ever? (no smart a** or rudeness implied here just seriously wondering)
-matt

[Drizit]

just out of curosity have you used a hammer head ever? (no smart a** or rudeness implied here just seriously wondering)
-matt

personaly I have one on my imp and I love it, I'm in the process of putting a hammerhead tip on a freak back to see what happens for my longbow, the issue with the standard hammerhead kit and the tac-one body is the back goes all the way inside the body and if it ever jammed you would never get it out without damage to somthing. I will however be doing my tests with standard hammerhead cocker backs and the freak back, just to see if it's realy better or not. In my results however I will only give data I will provide no opinion on what barrel is better. Just the facts and let everyone decide what they want to shoot on their own.

[Lohman446]

ok well that is still different than having something touching the balls that force them to spin as apposed to a flat tube spinning.

i am not saying that the hammer head give better range, or better acuracy, i am saying it puts a consistant spin on the balls so the balls are more predictible (i guess you coudl cann that better accuracy but it really depends on how you look at it)

just out of curosity have you used a hammer head ever? (no smart a** or rudeness implied here just seriously wondering)
-matt

I've shot a couple here and there, they perform like any other barrel to me. How is it putting spin on the paintball when the rifling does not touch the ball? I mean the rifled section is larger diameter than the back of the barrel.

That being said, the only barrel I have ever shot and been "wowed" by was the Apex at IAO - and on returning from IAO I made certain that it was not legal at local tournaments .

[SR_matt]

the rifiling is tight enough to still have the ball glide on it.

-matt

[Lohman446]

the rifiling is tight enough to still have the ball glide on it.

-matt

Its of a bigger diameter than the control bore.... rifling on a firearm "bites" deeply into the bullet to be effective. When TK was spinning the marker, he was also spinning the ball inside the marker up to high RPM - the barrel was not needed to create high RPM

[SR_matt]

by rotating the gun he gave it much diferent spin than if the ball was being twisted in its flight, when you move a gun as it is shot the flight of the bullet is not sped up or slowed down becasue it fires so fast the movement from the gun will not affect the flight.

the gun rifeling has to bite becasue it is twisting around all the way at least 2-3 times before it exits while the hammer head barrels are spinning a paintball less than half a twist (IIRC) before the ball leaves the barrel

-matt

[Shane-O-Mac]

Desega: I'm going to test every kit I can get my hands on. At the moment I have a freak and a hammerhead but I will endevor to get my hands on more if possible. Including some non kit type berrals if they can be found in the same bores.

SR_matt: I will do the tests as soon as I get time and get back to everyone.

Shane-O-Mac: I was under the impression that the geddon was a dual regulated system but I will defer to you in this However I will not agree that putting an extra high quality reg inline will add more variance to the results. Basic regulator mechanics say that for every reg you add in the system you reduce the variance by a factor of 10. So providing I don't start putting in crappy regs it will be more stable, it will slow down recharge rates but I don't care about that as I will be shooting one shot every few min. anyway.

Adding that max flow will just induce another variable. And another possible mechanical problem. Your 'Geddon and an air valve will do just fine. Your thought of basic reglator mechanics is not necessarily true for pball guns. Your adding another wholeset of paths and possible restrictions to your system with the set-up your talking about. If you add another reg, and dont have the proper set-up, it will not work very well. You are remove head room from the reg system and you can lose concistancy and recharge. And who ever said a Max-Flow is high quality?....lol.

I will get some reballs and do the test with them as well just to add that to the mix. Don't know why I would need to gut the fill nipple to hook up my scuba tank. If the scuba is hooked to the fill nipple all the time why this will keep the tank pressure constant essentially it adds 80FT.3 to the tank size, thus reducing the pressure drop per shot in the tank, and eliminating one more variable. Given I can't remove EVERY variable and there will be people out there who say I'm wrong and dumb because I couldn't eliminate EVERY variable and besides spinning paint does nothing... hey if spinning paint stops spinning as soon as it leaves the barrel how do the flatline and apex work?
Well You talking about diferent types of spin, Backspin works on the Bernouli principle. And the flatline and apex systems (and others) DO put spin on the balls. A Rifled barrel does not. Look at how much twist your rifling does inside the hammerhead, how much spin do you think it will impart? The amount of twist in that barrel will make a super slow spin (If it actually did make it spin) that may cause the balls to curve to the side. At the velocity paintballs shoot at, you not gonna get any appreciable spin from a rifled barrel. And you cannot get a tight enough fit to make the ball conform to the barrel. balls generally only touch on 2 or 3 sides. Your also talking about spinning the ball on a completely different axis which changes things. Ok you dont need the scuba tank. But if you insist on using it, you will have to gut the fill nipple. it will not be constantly open, it will open and close just like a pin valve, so you would not be gaining anything. Your 'Geddon isnt to bad for pressue changes through the tank. About 25 psi from full to 1000psi. that much change into the Air valve will net about 2 psi to the dump chamber. And thats not enough to make that much difference. The problem is making sure the air valve is operating perfectly.

Oh and I read that link years ago when tom first posted it

Have fun, but dont try and pass off your test as fact, its gonna be a subjective test, not Empirical (sp?).


Shane-O

[Shane-O-Mac]

the rifiling is tight enough to still have the ball glide on it.

-matt

A paintball "Gliding" on the rifiling of a hammerhead will not impart any spin. It must be compressed into the barrel and ALOT more twist to get any appreciable ball spin.

Shane-O

[SlartyBartFast]

by rotating the gun he gave it much diferent spin than if the ball was being twisted in its flight, when you move a gun as it is shot the flight of the bullet is not sped up or slowed down becasue it fires so fast the movement from the gun will not affect the flight.

the gun rifeling has to bite becasue it is twisting around all the way at least 2-3 times before it exits while the hammer head barrels are spinning a paintball less than half a twist (IIRC) before the ball leaves the barrel

-matt

Sorry, but your statements are simply revealing a complete ignorance of ballistics and physics.

NOTHING could put more consistent a spin on a projectile than spinning the barrel.

How on earth does one method of imparting a spin create a different spin than the other?

With out "biting" into the projectile, it's IMPOSSIBLE for any spin to be imparted. Consistent or otherwise.

The second part is just funny. Not only does the hammer head have rifling that can't affect a paintball passing through the barrel, but it has too tiny a twist to give any effect even if it did. :rofl:

[Lohman446]

I don't care about your laws of physics and logic. I've done non-quantitative (sp) testing based only on the observations of the naked eye in an uncontrolled environment.

[Drizit]

If anyone knows where I can get my hands on a highspeed camera (just rent it or borrow it that is) I'll put an end to the question of "does the ball spin comming out of a hammerhead"

Lohman446: why ban the apex? have you ever seen someone try to play speedball with it? I watched someone try at the IAO where I was reffing, he spent all his time playing with the barrel and no time shooting or moving.... guess how efective that was in order to make it work you would have to just set it to increas range and leave it there, basicaly like having a flatline except you would be shooting slower as with the flatline you set the gun at 280 and you are done, with the apex you have to chrono at 280 with no backspin then turn it on after. (thus slowing down the ball) the same way as with the galactic z body mag