Does this make sense?

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  • Lenny
    I AM the AO famous!
    • Dec 2003
    • 1628

    #1

    Does this make sense?

    Ok, I was reviewing my collection of Web Dog Tip Clip videos and was reminded of of a thought I used to ponder. According to Tyger, TK explained some very simple math to him that we all probably would've known had we ever thought about it (or I). If a string of paint was flying in the air at an equal 300fps at 10bps, that's roughly 30ft of space between each ball. Now, without equating in arc or the speed at which they fall or air resistence, that's a .2667 second gap between shots (assuming all fly in a straight path to an exact 80ft detination).

    I don't know about you guys, but my friend says that is plenty of time to run through the line IF in a full sprint. I would say vaguely possible to near impossible, but, it serves a good point:

    Do we really need higher rates of fire? At just 10 bps, there is already that tiny of a time gap, so I figure, wouldn't reducing velocities lower the gap even more? Instead of 30ft between 80ft long shots at .2667 seconds, it would be more like 28ft (280fps) between 80ft long shots at x<0.2667 seconds? (I tried calculating it out, but I'm not sure of a good approximation of distance at this velocity). The way I see it, the lower the velocity, the lesser the speed gaps.

    Now, also figure this: many people are fully capable of firing streams in bursts of approx. 15bps. That would change the numbers around a bit, but tremendously decreases the time gap by a full 1/3. We always say more than 15bps is unneccessary and wasteful (though impressive), and always argue that a human finger cannot pull that fast anyway (which has potential to be true, at least in many cases); so why hasn't anyone argued this point? Not only is the whole 20+ thing wastefull, uneccessary, inaccurate, but even impractical!

    Now, I know there are alot of physics and calc. that alter things quite a bit, but stating narrowly, wouldn't this prove the point a bit better?

    Either way, it'll shut the little AGG kids up over at the Nation.

    -And yeah, I did think this all up my self
    /at work

    - and yeah, work really is that boring
    //really
    Autocockers are the greatest markers ever made.
    ~The greatest BACKUP markers to AUTOMAGS!!

    Only temporary, get'n a new sig soon.
  • CrimsonGhost
    Distracted

    • Jan 2004
    • 478

    #2
    It HAS been argued a few times around here and a few other places.

    Most of the 15+ bps stuff is a marketing tool and /or a case of giving the customer what they want.
    Also I think it is part of the nature of competition ... Mine is faster than yours.

    15+ bps is kinda like buying a sports car... You don't NEED it to go over 70 mph .
    " Remember what the door mouse said..."

    Comment

    • Pneumagger
      I like 'Mags.

      • Jun 2006
      • 3556

      #3
      wouldn't 10bps be .1 seconds between every ball with 30 feet of spacing?

      20 bps should be .05 seconds with 15 feet between shots. This is at the barrel though. As the balls move downrange, there gets ot be less distance between each shot as the balls low down. If the balls slow down to ~200fps, you're looking at 10 fett between shots and @ 150fps around 7.5 feet between shots. You're not gonna get too many breaks from much lower velicities. Also, you have to remember...it only takes short distance out of the barrel for balls to deccellerate to 200fps. Offhand, I'd say is exponential.

      Not physics...algebra.
      Last edited by Pneumagger; 07-31-2006, 05:12 AM.

      Comment

      • Hexis
        Green Mag Freak
        • Sep 2001
        • 2427

        #4
        Originally posted by Pneumagger
        Not physics...algebra.
        Not algebra, calculus. Physics is calculus.

        Comment

        • paintman1234
          It's Agg-Tastic!
          • Aug 2004
          • 743

          #5
          I often miss with 15....
          http://www.directaffect.com/dev/jason/ao_states/images/ao_mi.gif

          http://www.colorspaintball.com/

          http://www.mayhemsports.net/

          Comment

          • Troen
            Registered User
            • Jul 2005
            • 413

            #6
            Originally posted by paintman1234
            I often miss with 15....
            then hook up 1,200 psi into your mag.

            Comment

            • paintman1234
              It's Agg-Tastic!
              • Aug 2004
              • 743

              #7
              hehehe, I tried that when I had my mag
              http://www.directaffect.com/dev/jason/ao_states/images/ao_mi.gif

              http://www.colorspaintball.com/

              http://www.mayhemsports.net/

              Comment

              • geekwarrior
                MIA
                • Oct 2005
                • 2581

                #8
                i have noticed that I play just as well with my mag at 5-8 bps as my Speed at 15bps. Course I suck with both...

                Comment

                • Pneumagger
                  I like 'Mags.

                  • Jun 2006
                  • 3556

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Hexis
                  Not algebra, calculus. Physics is calculus.
                  I'm saying it is niether physics nor calculus.

                  300fps / 15bps = 20 feet between balls

                  This is algebra. plain and simple. Until you start to factor in decelleration due to drag...it is not physics or calculus.

                  Comment

                  • NewbieMagMan10988
                    AO > Everything
                    • Jul 2004
                    • 580

                    #10
                    Ok, hers the deal,


                    At 10BPS, at about 285 FPS there is a small amount of space in beetween balls.

                    However...

                    As soon as the ball leaves the barrel, the velocity drops A GREAT amount. This opens up the space inbeetween balls. This is true even at 30 BPS, or whatever.

                    Point is,


                    Run fast.... dodge paint...

                    Run slow.....eat paint....

                    Or just play pump.


                    LALALa

                    Mike

                    Comment

                    • Pneumagger
                      I like 'Mags.

                      • Jun 2006
                      • 3556

                      #11
                      Originally posted by NewbieMagMan10988

                      As soon as the ball leaves the barrel, the velocity drops A GREAT amount.
                      True

                      Originally posted by NewbieMagMan10988

                      Run fast.... dodge paint...

                      Run slow.....eat paint....

                      Or just play pump.
                      True

                      Originally posted by NewbieMagMan10988

                      As soon as the ball leaves the barrel, the velocity drops A GREAT amount. This opens up the space inbeetween balls. This is true even at 30 BPS, or whatever.
                      False

                      Asuming the gun fires at a constant rate and is stationary: As the balls slow down the space between them DECREASES. The flux of shots past a particular point in the stream will remain constant. This is true (and must remain so) given the same forces are exerted on each ball at repective positions in their trejectory.

                      But as the velocity decreases very rapidly due to the drag and lightweight of a paintball, the spacial separtation between 2 subsequent paintballs must decrease to satisfy the constant flux of paint through a given point in the string of shots. You see, the flux of shots at any given point in the string must remain constant, otherwise you imply that each ball is experienceing different forces on it once it leaves the barrel. That notion is what we like to call the "Budd Orr Syndrome"...and cannot happen in reality. Now marketing, That is a whole 'nother story.

                      300fps / 15bps = 20 feet between balls
                      285fps / 15bps = 19 feet between balls
                      200fps / 15bps = 13' 4" between balls
                      150fps / 15bps = 10 feet between balls

                      .00383fps is when balls start "stacking" on each other - by this point, they have either hit the ground or gravity has noticably effected their movement so they are not travelling this slowly.

                      Comment

                      • zaqwert6
                        Nobody Special
                        • Aug 2003
                        • 108

                        #12
                        I don't care what the math says... from across the field , off the break for instance where ROF is most important , you can run thru 10 bps all day long.

                        That's not even considering the fact that as the ball slows ( which it does 'greatly' at that distance ) a single ball hitting and breaking on you is even a greater long shot. ( pun intended )

                        Comment

                        • Lenny
                          I AM the AO famous!
                          • Dec 2003
                          • 1628

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Pneumagger
                          True


                          True



                          False

                          Asuming the gun fires at a constant rate and is stationary: As the balls slow down the space between them DECREASES. The flux of shots past a particular point in the stream will remain constant. This is true (and must remain so) given the same forces are exerted on each ball at repective positions in their trejectory.

                          But as the velocity decreases very rapidly due to the drag and lightweight of a paintball, the spacial separtation between 2 subsequent paintballs must decrease to satisfy the constant flux of paint through a given point in the string of shots. You see, the flux of shots at any given point in the string must remain constant, otherwise you imply that each ball is experienceing different forces on it once it leaves the barrel. That notion is what we like to call the "Budd Orr Syndrome"...and cannot happen in reality. Now marketing, That is a whole 'nother story.

                          300fps / 15bps = 20 feet between balls
                          285fps / 15bps = 19 feet between balls
                          200fps / 15bps = 13' 4" between balls
                          150fps / 15bps = 10 feet between balls

                          .00383fps is when balls start "stacking" on each other - by this point, they have either hit the ground or gravity has noticably effected their movement so they are not travelling this slowly.
                          That's sort of what I tried to say.

                          My whole point initially was why do we argue ROF with just finger speed? why not also this sort of deal. Everyone keeps their velocity as high as they're allowed, but it's really a gentle combo of velocity and ROF that'll make speedball playing (or more specifically, break shooting) more effective.

                          Yay for post 200! It only took me a few years...
                          Autocockers are the greatest markers ever made.
                          ~The greatest BACKUP markers to AUTOMAGS!!

                          Only temporary, get'n a new sig soon.

                          Comment

                          • dahoeb
                            Registered User

                            • Jul 2004
                            • 862

                            #14
                            i don't think its THAT easy to run through a stream at 10 or 15 bps, its probably a 50/50 chance of getting hit. but if you follow the person with your stream (assuming your able to) you'll almost certainly get them, if you can aim.

                            Comment

                            • paintman1234
                              It's Agg-Tastic!
                              • Aug 2004
                              • 743

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Pneumagger
                              True


                              True



                              False

                              Asuming the gun fires at a constant rate and is stationary: As the balls slow down the space between them DECREASES. The flux of shots past a particular point in the stream will remain constant. This is true (and must remain so) given the same forces are exerted on each ball at repective positions in their trejectory.

                              But as the velocity decreases very rapidly due to the drag and lightweight of a paintball, the spacial separtation between 2 subsequent paintballs must decrease to satisfy the constant flux of paint through a given point in the string of shots. You see, the flux of shots at any given point in the string must remain constant, otherwise you imply that each ball is experienceing different forces on it once it leaves the barrel. That notion is what we like to call the "Budd Orr Syndrome"...and cannot happen in reality. Now marketing, That is a whole 'nother story.

                              300fps / 15bps = 20 feet between balls
                              285fps / 15bps = 19 feet between balls
                              200fps / 15bps = 13' 4" between balls
                              150fps / 15bps = 10 feet between balls

                              .00383fps is when balls start "stacking" on each other - by this point, they have either hit the ground or gravity has noticably effected their movement so they are not travelling this slowly.
                              so basically we have to find the right combo setting the gun low enough fps wise that the balls are close togather yet actually break when they hit something... hmmm.... I may just turn my velocity down a little
                              http://www.directaffect.com/dev/jason/ao_states/images/ao_mi.gif

                              http://www.colorspaintball.com/

                              http://www.mayhemsports.net/

                              Comment

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