Is AGD DOA?

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  • rx2
    DBAF
    • Mar 2002
    • 496

    #46
    I think, in part, that the whole AGD is dead is sort of backlash from the early years. When I purchased my first Mag something like 13 year ago, it was THE elite gun to have. The only other consideration was a Cocker, but only if you had time to tinker and upgrade. Over the course of the early and mid 90s, they pioneered HPA, and RT. People expected a lot out of AGD, and it is hard for them to accept that they actually ended up behind the curve, so to speak (although it might be more accurate to call them "beside" the curve). In fact, a lot of people who used to be die-hard mag fans felt a little betrayed with things like the Level 10. While not my own opinion, a lot of people I have played with who are former Mag owners, as well as a few angry forumites of old, said that, for years, they were told Mags didn't have an issue with paint. It seemed that everyone was trying to pass it off as negative spin by competitors, and any problems were simply user error. Yet, all of the sudden, they come out with this new bolt. On top of that, it had to be tuned, which was sort of the opposite of the old KISS methodology they had admired about Mags in the first place. To those people, things like this were a sign of a company that had gotten behind the times, and were scrambling to keep up: sort of an "oops" type of reaction.

    This also made people suspicious, to a point, of just how much effort AGD was putting in. While the AIR and RT valves are no more dated than the rest of the technology currently being used, as has been pointed out numerous times, people seem to think that AGD might have been able to turn out something somehow better. Just like with the chopping issue, people began to suspect that AGD was either too stubborn, or too haughty to attempt something new. These people feel that AGD's valves should have been evolving right along with the other valves and systems, regardless of whether or not it is really feasible.

    Another thing that leads poeple, that I have spoken with, to have little faith in AGD is the fact that what upgrades there are often put the total package price well above other markers that are already more "capapble" out of the box, especially considering the used market. To them, mags now seem an enthusiast marker - something you get as a project, or for old time's sake.

    Of course, with a few exceptions, none of us are privy to AGD's finacial information, so we can only speculate. I am sure they are riding it out just fine. But, for all of the nostalgic types, for whom the mid 90s were the good old days, it can be concerning to see what has become of the once monolithic AGD.

    I may not agree with all of these opinions, but, I can understand why some people get these feelings of despair.
    Last edited by rx2; 08-04-2006, 10:52 PM.
    "My Jell-O is dying in the audience..."
    Merrill Howard Kalin

    Comment

    • bigbadboz
      Mags Shall Never Die
      • Jul 2006
      • 4

      #47
      i just hit my savings

      Originally posted by eadtf
      BigEvil thank you, you get my point... But add me to the list of dead-cold-hands gripping a my RT in one and XMAG in the other, I will never trade up.

      You are right they did say they were going to put their efforts to scenario ball, but they need to freshen it up a bit.
      I just hit my savings to repair the very first marker i owned and i love my spyder now it still 100% old school with a lil new to keep it goin, My second marker makes me cry every time i see it, and today i dropped a lvl 10 and ult in it and i need help tweakin. thats another thread. but point is my mag with my protema products double trigger 45 frame, ye you read it and BIG NICE FREAKIN BLACK WOOD SP GRIPS. I will be on the front line and there will be no mercy my minmag in my right and Mag in the left. Some body plz feal me in on the d mag plz. Will it spome a timmy. What MAG should i buy next. the was a great vent thanx mags rule go suck on your cocker. dont forget that moto.

      Comment

      • Lohman446
        Useful posts: 7
        • Jun 2003
        • 9315

        #48
        Originally posted by Troen
        if you can find an decent example, ill apologize, but google didnt come up with anything.
        What you and I beleive of the risk is irrelevant, what TK beleives is what is important Read his first post in this thread


        http://automags.org/forums/showthrea...=167377&page=1
        Last edited by Lohman446; 08-05-2006, 08:47 AM.
        "Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. Its not" - Dr Suess

        Comment

        • Troen
          Registered User
          • Jul 2005
          • 413

          #49
          Originally posted by Lohman446
          What you and I beleive of the risk is irrelevant, what TK beleives is what is important Read his first post in this thread


          http://automags.org/forums/showthread.php
          nothing came up

          Comment

          • Lohman446
            Useful posts: 7
            • Jun 2003
            • 9315

            #50
            Originally posted by TK in above linked thread
            Ok here is an actual true case:
            President of a company tells his people to cut off the tops of the empty 55 gallon arsenic drums and use them as garbage cans. Everything is fine for about 10 years and then his employees start dying. He was a corporation which normally protects the owner from personal liability in a lawsuit against the company (may paintball companies understand this very well). But in this case the courts cut through the "corporate veil" and went after the owner personally. They took everything he had and threw him in jail. This was because he knowingly violated industry standards that jeopordized the lives of his employees.

            So, we all know what the industry standards are.
            We also know a guy in England died after getting shot in the head.
            The companies all voted on the standards and were completely aware of them.
            Those same companies have now elected not to follow those guidelines.
            The companies did it because of competitive pressure in other words "for the money"

            Now ask yourself, if you were sitting on the jury, how would you vote?

            AGD
            I fixed the link :) Should have checked it
            "Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. Its not" - Dr Suess

            Comment

            • Troen
              Registered User
              • Jul 2005
              • 413

              #51
              it makes perfect sense. you and rogue have me believing its not dead. but, are we to expect anything new out of AGD?
              Last edited by Troen; 08-05-2006, 09:08 AM. Reason: i gots bad grammar

              Comment

              • hipster
                Registered User
                • May 2005
                • 106

                #52
                that was what im trying to say should AGD expand on what they have done " give it a new twist "
                they did it with valves, they did it with the bodies, they did it with the rails I just think they could easily do it to the emag/ xmag battery and prob redo the bodies and rails ,it is time,
                I also think what they did with the xvalve and level X and ace should have been just a step towards the next evolution of the mag platform, lower preasure , to conform to most tanks and smoother opperation, the end of the see/saw sear etc.

                I just think the mag has room to grow its a great gun I have owned one since the mid 90's it just does not seem right that they stoped inventing and tweaking, I don't think the mag has reached that "it's perfect they way it is" point yet
                if they did there would not be so many small in the back room tinker-ers doing what they do

                I know there are lot of small co. and products out there , but lets face your lucky if 20 percent of the painball public actually know these peaple and companies
                ( deadly wind centerflag are couple of larger ones and still are relitivley unknown compared to many other co. And both those have pretty much discontinued there mag stuff)

                let alone how many of the 20 percent are willing buy a gun for $200-$1000 then send a gun to someone to mod it for another $200-$400and hope it is as they expect, its not the same as buying something complete from AGD and having it backed by AGD

                and please don't take that the wrong way many of you that mod and sell you stuff do make quality products

                Comment

                • Lohman446
                  Useful posts: 7
                  • Jun 2003
                  • 9315

                  #53
                  Having owned multiple E-mags and even a devilmag I am going to go out on a limb and say the RT mag was "the just right the way it is". Now Im having my RT made into a pneumag, but thats more of a I want to say I have one than really caring
                  "Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. Its not" - Dr Suess

                  Comment

                  • REDRT
                    Mags, Y use anything else
                    • Apr 2004
                    • 1854

                    #54
                    Originally posted by BigEvil
                    Thats 100% correct, but paintball has little to do with advancing technology at this point. It has to do all about marketing, and being trendy. Something AGD could not ever do.


                    Look at Tom, the man. A smart guy, but he never will or ever will be trendy. In fact he is more of a geek. Mags themselves could've been trendy and they were to a point. With out a great ordeal of a total revamp they could be tready again. AGD has an ok slogan already. They have these outside sources like deadywind for the coolest bodies, xmode or maybe tag for software. If they could keep the Emag all tricked out whit flashy color option under $1100 and advertise using something way more trendier than Tom maybe they would/could turn this thing around. Look at anything successful and your going to see good advertising backing it up. I really don't think the Emag is all that bad of platform even today. When you upgrade every go faster weigh less product to it it isn't too far of of anything else out there. The cost has been prohibative, but it didn't have to be. That is just me. I've sent 2k building my dream Emag and it doesn't end there! I'd say $1100 could be a possablity and be better with factory support. I'd venture to say with creative advertisement and a custom Emag under $1200 cap with every upgrade available it would not only bring on new customer base, but also would find it's way to mainstream. I believe the base Emag can be that great. All it would take is One well knowen player to have a favorable comment or two, a teen icon perhaps or maybe a gangsta rapper in some video with one. Just something catchy. An icon or gingle. I really feel it would take off like it was alway ment to. The power of advertisement could make most people do or buy anything. Very few people every really stop the think. Alot of people are too caught up with their busy lives to ever really think and are mindless robots most of the time. AGD needs to hire that someone that is going to change the whole operation around and quite possably change the paintball world around.

                    Comment

                    • Lohman446
                      Useful posts: 7
                      • Jun 2003
                      • 9315

                      #55
                      Originally posted by REDRT
                      Look at Tom, the man. A smart guy, but he never will or ever will be trendy. In fact he is more of a geek. Mags themselves could've been trendy and they were to a point. With out a great ordeal of a total revamp they could be tready again. AGD has an ok slogan already. They have these outside sources like deadywind for the coolest bodies, xmode or maybe tag for software. If they could keep the Emag all tricked out whit flashy color option under $1100 and advertise using something way more trendier than Tom maybe they would/could turn this thing around. Look at anything successful and your going to see good advertising backing it up. I really don't think the Emag is all that bad of platform even today. When you upgrade every go faster weigh less product to it it isn't too far of of anything else out there. The cost has been prohibative, but it didn't have to be. That is just me. I've sent 2k building my dream Emag and it doesn't end there! I'd say $1100 could be a possablity and be better with factory support. I'd venture to say with creative advertisement and a custom Emag under $1200 cap with every upgrade available it would not only bring on new customer base, but also would find it's way to mainstream. I believe the base Emag can be that great. All it would take is One well knowen player to have a favorable comment or two, a teen icon perhaps or maybe a gangsta rapper in some video with one. Just something catchy. An icon or gingle. I really feel it would take off like it was alway ment to. The power of advertisement could make most people do or buy anything. Very few people every really stop the think. Alot of people are too caught up with their busy lives to ever really think and are mindless robots most of the time. AGD needs to hire that someone that is going to change the whole operation around and quite possably change the paintball world around.

                      Wrong.... the reason I, and many other people on these boards, do not shoot an E-mag has absolutely nothing to do with trendiness.
                      "Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. Its not" - Dr Suess

                      Comment

                      • iambored
                        I dare YOU to think!
                        • Jul 2006
                        • 463

                        #56
                        If you noticed, few has changed in any paintball company.
                        Everybody wants a shocker but thats only got new software and mono-tube body
                        Not much of an improvement
                        And AGD is more or less on top tech wise
                        Yeah they don't go makin shiny electro's and fancy new micro versions of their products but they used mono-tube bodies before SP did and have proven the test of time. Not to mention that the agd rt's are one of the few reactive non-electro markers out their. AGD also has the edge on interchangable parts, the fact is that ions can't be shockers and merlins can't be excaliburs (but aka has some awesome markers). You can turn a minimag into a rt pro.
                        So I'd say agd has alot of ground in the industry, but there is always gonna be room for improvement

                        Comment

                        • DoomWithAnXmag
                          Registered User
                          • Aug 2005
                          • 49

                          #57
                          MAGs

                          OK, after reading these here is my biased opinion.
                          Mags are old.
                          Sorry it's true. Not saying they dont work but they are...old. They look old they act old and they feel old. I have had a few mags including an Xmag which I loved and a ULE that was a POS out of the box right till the day I sold it. Because of the nature of the sport there are certain aspects of marker that are important, more so in air ball then woods. Weight, speed, anti chop ability, reliablility, options and yes even though some people are happy using something that looks like it was welded out of stove pipe LOOKS are important. Not saying these are all that is important but some of the things. If AGD is interested in making money and/or having a part in tournements then they need to do some things. If they just want to plod along being a low volume nich market product just keeping the doors open while slowly fading in market presence then they can keep doing what they are doing. AGD makes a good reliable product that shoots paintballs. AMC made a good reliable car that did all the things a car needs to do.... don't see those around anymore do you? The fact is most people want NEW better looking lighter faster gee wizz goodie packed stuff and if you want to sell markers and make money then that is what you build. Selling old school E-mags with reflective or no eyess, HUGE heavy batterys, Ultra high pressure operation, monster kick, noise like a V8 throwing a rod, and board/software that makes a digital watch look like Star Trek gear for $900 is not going to do it. Especially when you have markers that weigh far less, have insane options, great milling and colors, are efficent, quiet and have no kick. If AGD is not interested in competition markers and like tippman just wants to concentrate on woods ball then they are on a better path. Advanced electronics and Pretty milling is not such a big issue since for some odd reason Woods players often like to make a marker larger and heavier without adding any performance value. If this is their plan I suggest actually doing it and not just slowly drifting that way and hoping people pick up on it. Start to strongly market the Tac with options and new features. How about Different camo patterns or mil-sim stocks and body kits.
                          Do not get me wrong I loved my Xmag. It was a fine beautifully made marker but there are reasons I do not own it now. It was like driving a classic european sprts cars, a beautifully built, high performance machine that looks and feels good but is still 30 years out of date and that is only the Xmag. Other AGD markers do not have that markers visual appeal. Historic car value aside would you rather pay 30 grand for an old sports car or a new one that was fater, lighter, gets better milage, has AC, navi, power everything, fuel injection, etc etc?

                          How about this? ULE E-mag, so some nice milling nothing crazy and offer colors, use a serious trigger not that two finger 1993 thing, add a clamp, use the ULT a smaller noid and 9v battery in the grip frame, Tourney modes, break beam eyes and better board interface like on the E2 maybe lower operation pressure? The milling,neck,colors and eyes would be VERY easy and low cost. The rest would not be a huge design issue either but would take more work. AGD could build a modern competative marker with relativly minor work.

                          Comment

                          • ttink
                            Registered User
                            • Aug 2005
                            • 317

                            #58
                            Well, you kinda just gotta figure it like this: Tom Kaye is obviously a very smart individual who could take AGD and make it into a pretty competitive company, but he chooses not to. They are doing fine now, so why change a good thing? Its really all up to AGD and its owners to decide what they want to do. Right now, it looks like they just kinda wanna sit back and let things happen. It's their decision, life goes on.

                            Comment

                            • Lohman446
                              Useful posts: 7
                              • Jun 2003
                              • 9315

                              #59
                              Originally posted by ttink
                              Well, you kinda just gotta figure it like this: Tom Kaye is obviously a very smart individual who could take AGD and make it into a pretty competitive company, but he chooses not to. They are doing fine now, so why change a good thing? Its really all up to AGD and its owners to decide what they want to do. Right now, it looks like they just kinda wanna sit back and let things happen. It's their decision, life goes on.
                              You get it.
                              "Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. Its not" - Dr Suess

                              Comment

                              • REDRT
                                Mags, Y use anything else
                                • Apr 2004
                                • 1854

                                #60
                                Originally posted by Lohman446
                                Wrong.... the reason I, and many other people on these boards, do not shoot an E-mag has absolutely nothing to do with trendiness.
                                The reason you and many others don't shoot mags is you don't believe in them and you are caught up in the current trendy markers set forth by advertisement. The ad world creates trends if done correctly an upgraded Emag or Emag based revised marker could be trendy.

                                Originally posted by DoomWithAnXmag
                                OK, after reading these here is my biased opinion.
                                Mags are old.
                                Not really. I guess other popular marker designs are spring chickens? Emags came out in 2k and the xmag after that. To me that isn't too old. The valve technology is older, but it still is what it says it is," the fastest recharging valve". Not old to me. Maybe if I was trading off markers every 6 months or so it would be consisdered old? If Agd would get off there arses and update a few simple things and market it, it would be a very competive marker with a broarder fan base. Market it well enough it could even be trendy.

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