What Happened to Tippmans Propane Gun?

[SlartyBartFast]

If somone can make a semi auto that can run off of these propane tanks, I could see it taking off.
http://blbikeshop.com/itemdetails.cf...gId=39&id=5348

Forget that. Those are huge. Use these:

http://www.drugstore.com/products/prod.asp?pid=57466&catid=29108&brand=8408&trx=PLST-0-BRAND&trxp1=29108&trxp2=57466&trxp3=1&trxp4=0&btrx=BUY-PLST-0-BRAND&cmbProdBrandFilter=8408

Granted those are Butane. There are also tiny little oxygen and gas cylinders for micro welding and cutting torches.

Or, build in a small cylinder that can be refilled, say enough to shoot a case...

Or, how about Airsoft "Green Gas"?

[SlartyBartFast]

-Nope. That would cause the water vapor to condense into droplets on the inside of the barrel.

That's why the C3 has that funky plastic/carbon-fiber barrel; it doesn't transfer heat as well as aluminum or stainless, and so minimizes condensation.

That's also, I believe, why the gun didn't come with Tippman/A5 or 'Cocker threading- so players wouldn't/can't use a metal barrel.

Doc.

Makes sense. But no combustion gas should get into the barrel...

The combustion/Explosion drives the piston that compresses air. Is the air intake that close to the combustion exhaust? Too lazy to search for and look at the diagrams I have...

[Ace12GA]

I think Doc is referring to the fact that when you combust propane, part of the exhaust is water vapor, which will condense on a cool metal barrel, creating water droplets inside the marker.

[SlartyBartFast]

I think Doc is referring to the fact that when you combust propane, part of the exhaust is water vapor, which will condense on a cool metal barrel, creating water droplets inside the marker.

I know EXACTLY what Doc is talking about.

Just by the design, combustion gas shouldn't get to the barrel.

[Doc Nickel]

It's my understanding that combustion gasses directly fire the paintball.

Doc.

[SlartyBartFast]

It's my understanding that combustion gasses directly fire the paintball.

Doc.

Sorry, my stupid.

Looked up the WARPIG animation and my copy of the C3 parts diagram.

Can't remember if I posted this before, but it was on my computer along with the C3 stuff:

How to make the C3-semi:

Currently, when the propane explodes, there is no movement of the piston required for the exhaust to vent through the velocity control piston.

If the piston was propelled back by the explosion before the exhaust gases could escape through the velocity adjusting piston, you could have one cylinder prime another.
So, not one combustion chamber, but two horizontally opposed cylinders that are fixed to a common shaft.

Cycling the bolt could perhaps simply be accomplished by using an Automag type blow-forward bolt or Tippmann type blow-back bolt.

For some reason I can't get the idea of a liquid cooled, V8 powered, Tippmann 98 out of my head. :rotfl Then when asking how many RPM a marker gets, it won't be because someone made a type or slip-up while asking about bps.

DAMN! How the semi version would work seems absolutely clear in my mind. My attraction to paintball and my Bachelor's in Automotive Design unite!

Think Tippmann is hiring? lol

[Jaan]

Doc,

You're right that 50k shots for a pump gun is excessive, but the thing to do is to simply make the tank smaller. It's certainly conceivable that the propane source could be small enough to fit unobtrusively inside the body of the gun, and small enough to play all day but still require a refill every time you played. We don't see big air source tanks as a problem now, and they're not really, but I think we could all live without them. I can imagine the current crop of paintball markers to be the equivalent of flintlocks ... not much different than hand canons and matchlocks before them. People used muzzleloaders for centuries and were perfectly happy with them until that one little bit of technology came along, the fulminated mercury cap and soon after cartridge ammunition. Don't forget, cartridge ammunition didn't catch on right away either.

[WenULiVeUdiE]

I'm sure tanks as small as 12 Grams could be used with the C3.

That's all...

[Arstron]

Forget that. Those are huge. Use these:

http://www.drugstore.com/products/prod.asp?pid=57466&catid=29108&brand=8408&trx=PLST-0-BRAND&trxp1=29108&trxp2=57466&trxp3=1&trxp4=0&btrx=BUY-PLST-0-BRAND&cmbProdBrandFilter=8408

Granted those are Butane. There are also tiny little oxygen and gas cylinders for micro welding and cutting torches.

Or, build in a small cylinder that can be refilled, say enough to shoot a case...

Or, how about Airsoft "Green Gas"?

I know I have heard of smaller tanks, that 40gram tank was the smallest I could find online. A 12 gram sized tank would be perfect though.

[JRingold]

They work great up here in Minnesota for the winter pump and pistols games. Nothing like carrying a hand warmer that shoots paintballs when it's below 15 degrees.

I haven't seen any outside of the winter games... There seems to be an appeal to those around here who play outlaw once or twice a year.

[SR_matt]

the whole thing about propane not being useful/needed as a propelent, was HPA needed? no u could get a palmers stab and an antisyphon and have no problems what so ever (and spend a little less money) but HPA caught on


and please dont start the whole well co2 doesnt work in this gun, that gun what ever cause there is a way to get it to work in any gun its jsut the question of how many regs and filters u would need.
-matt

[REDRT]

What Happened to Tippmans Propane Gun?

AGD

Very limited to no interest in it I feel. I think Doc has it down pretty good and has given it some thought. Why the interest in C3 Tippmanns? Maybe some thought on MAGs and us long time supporters

[Doc Nickel]

the whole thing about propane not being useful/needed as a propelent, was HPA needed? no u could get a palmers stab and an antisyphon and have no problems what so ever (and spend a little less money) but HPA caught on

-You're forgetting that CO2 self-chills as the gas is used. The faster or the more you shoot, the cooler the tank gets. The cooler the tank gets, the lower the tank pressure, and so the lower the pressure going into the gun.

Palmer's Stabilizers and antisiphons can reduce some of the liquid effects, but no regulator can add pressure to the output.

Yes, Angels, Egos and Intimidators can run just fine on CO2, but after a fast pod or two, the tank cools down to below what the gun needs to cycle, and you get blooper shots. Cooler weather simply speeds up the process, but even hot weather can rarely keep up with CO2s cryogenic effects. So yes, you can, and do, have "problems" using CO2.

HPA offered far better temperature stability, and therefore far better consistency, and therefore improved accuracy. It let players play more and longer in cool weather or even winter, and so on. Early HPA systems sold for $300 to $450, so you paid dearly for those benefits, but enough players found it useful enough that it "caught on".

And that's the problem with the C3. Most fields have access to HPA or compressed nitrogen, and the systems themselves can be had for under $100 now. The C3 would have been revolutionary back in 1993. Still useful as recently as 1996 or '97, but today it's kinda pointless.

and please dont start the whole well co2 doesnt work in this gun, that gun what ever cause there is a way to get it to work in any gun its jsut the question of how many regs and filters u would need.
-matt

-Again, regs and filters can't ADD pressure. If the gun needs 300 PSI, and the tank cools off enough to only give you 200 psi (easy to do, especially with a fast gun and cool weather) then you get reduced velocity or blooper shots- if, indeed the gun even keeps working. (Like a Level-10-equipped 'Mag, for example.)

And even if the tank doesn't cool off completely, there's still the velocity fluctuation as the tank pressure drops, warms up between games, drops again, warms back up, gets refilled, etc.

HPA offered major improvements over CO2, which is why it caught on. Especially after people developed screw-in systems that could be easily adapted to older markers, as well as costing considerably less than the other systems of the time.

Propane offers one improvement- efficiency, or shots per tank- but adds several drawbacks (heat, condensation) and cannot be retrofitted to any other marker. In this case, the benefits are far outweighed by the drawbacks, and I suspect it'll be quietly forgotten.

Doc.

[SR_matt]

well ive never seen a co2 tank cool off that much that quickly but i can see how it would happen.

with a brand new stab i tried to dump liquid into my pump gun and didnt get any spikes at all (and my field has a bad habbit of over filling tanks so i know there was plenty of liquid).

i dont see how a co2 tank can cool off enough to drop from 850 psi down to sub 400 psi by just shooting a pod or 2 even if u literaly dump the psi out.
-matt

[Doc Nickel]

You haven't used CO2 much, have you?

Were you shooting the pump over a chronograph? Or just winging it and "seeing what'll happen"? A typical marker running unregged CO2 can easily see a 100FPS jump by going liquid, and a regulated marker that gets liquid past the reg, and then left to warm up a bit, can see more than that. The reg acts as a check valve, and so you can easily see 1,200+ psi at the valve chamber.

As for the tank cooling, a CO2 tank is only 850 PSI at 70 degrees. It's 750 psi at 60 degrees, 650 at 50 degrees, 550 at 40 degrees, and so on (very roughly, see this chart for details.)

Watch a store fill a CO2 tank. Typically they'll "bleed" it a bit (dump CO2) to cool the tank. If you've watched this, you've seen the "frost" form on the tank? That means the tank is below freezing- 32 degrees or below, or well under 500 psi. Doesn't take much bleeding to get it that cold, does it? Two or three seconds, in my experience. After ten, the tank "rattles"- the liquid CO2 inside has frozen into dry ice, twenty or thirty degrees below zero, and essentially zero pressure.

In any case, it's a moot point. The market- the players and buyers- have decided that HPA is a better propellant, and one that's basically required for any decently fast mid to high end marker.

Yes, CO2 is still a very workable and viable propellant, but HPA is better and eliminates several of CO2's definite drawbacks. As far as cost goes, while a CO2 tank is "cheaper", to get the best use, as you noted, it needs to be paired with a regulator. A Stabilizer is anywhere from $90 to $110, plus about $35 for the tank. While HPA tanks can be had for about the same price.

Doc.