A few questions I have never thought about

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  • benzy2
    Registered User
    • Jul 2002
    • 546

    #1

    A few questions I have never thought about

    Today I was looking at the design of the mag and was working on my pneumag and notice my efficiency was bad. I thought oh Im dry firing that must be why. But then I thought some more. Mags use a dump chamber and as such they are always using the same amount of air per shot. So dry firing shouldnt produce any difference in efficiency should it?

    The next thought then was about how I remember some spool designs being exponentially less efficient the higher the fps got. So my next question is in general what is the efficiency(meaning shots per tank) curve for a mag when adjusting pressure/fps? When I say pressure I mean at the rear of the mag valve while keeping the input pressure constant. I would be very interested in knowing this. I really dont have a cheap access to air or I would try it myself. It would seem like you wouldnt even need paint to test it out.

    To test it I would think you would need to have a good chrono and also properly lubed and functioning guns. I dont know what the difference would be between a classic or an RT valve if any. I would try it by chronoing the gun in ten fps adjustments and then with a full tank(something with a gauge on it more precise than we normally use and also on a room temperature fill measured by a wrap on thermometer). Obviously this would require a very consistant setup to produce meaningful results. Take a counter and count how many shots from a fill at given fps(an average would be needed as a single test could easily show error). Then run the test from 200fps up to 330 or whatever number you want. Run it three to five times at least at each pressure making sure pressures are equal to start with as with temperatures. And then graph the results.

    You could also change the input pressure to the gun which would be an entirely different variable.

    Im not sure what you would see result wise. I would love to know if dropping my fps by 5 would increase my shot count by a large margin or by a small amount not worth the loss in fps.

    I know to many this is a moot point as they have all day fill but I dont and not only is there no all day fill but if I play at home instead of at college I have a good hour+ drive each way to fill up my small 68/3000 tank. To me it is something that would be interesting to know and take into account when setting my gun for play.

    I also realize that no gun is the same as another and results will be different for each user. Still they should be close and if it is tested on multiple guns an average could be found that would be the general rule.
    Why doesnt anything work for me.
  • geekwarrior
    MIA
    • Oct 2005
    • 2581

    #2
    interesting thoughts, I'm not the one to answer your questions, but I'll be reading the responses of others....


    as for filling your tank, you should look into a scuba tank...you can pick them up for $70-80 and it costs $6 to refill it. Course you need to have a scuba shop nearby

    Comment

    • coyote

      #3
      Don't forget....

      The barrel length and porting make a diffrence. When efficiecy is a factor I shoot a lapco autospirit in my mag.

      Comment

      • AGD
        The man from AGD

        • Oct 2000
        • 5916

        #4
        Dry firing is NOT as efficient as shooting paintballs!! This is where you have to know whats going on inside the gun and not just guess because at first blush, you would think they would be the same.

        When firing a paintball, the bolt retracts and seals in some of the pressure in the chamber before it all escapes. This leaves a residual pressure in the chamber of about 50 psi which will be used in the next shot. If you dry fire it, the residual pressure is zero, you waisted that 50 psi residual.

        Use a longer barrel about 10" if you want better efficiency.

        AGD
        sigpic

        Comment

        • benzy2
          Registered User
          • Jul 2002
          • 546

          #5
          Originally posted by geekwarrior
          interesting thoughts, I'm not the one to answer your questions, but I'll be reading the responses of others....


          as for filling your tank, you should look into a scuba tank...you can pick them up for $70-80 and it costs $6 to refill it. Course you need to have a scuba shop nearby
          I have a scuba tank but then you wont be getting the same fill pressure each fill leaving a bit of error.

          Originally posted by coyote
          Don't forget....

          The barrel length and porting make a diffrence. When efficiecy is a factor I shoot a lapco autospirit in my mag.
          While thats true I was more talking about limiting the variables to just the pressure. The barrel I have has very little porting just at the tip and it is 12 inches.

          Originally posted by AGD
          Dry firing is NOT as efficient as shooting paintballs!! This is where you have to know whats going on inside the gun and not just guess because at first blush, you would think they would be the same.

          When firing a paintball, the bolt retracts and seals in some of the pressure in the chamber before it all escapes. This leaves a residual pressure in the chamber of about 50 psi which will be used in the next shot. If you dry fire it, the residual pressure is zero, you waisted that 50 psi residual.

          Use a longer barrel about 10" if you want better efficiency.

          AGD
          I do see what you mean now. I wasnt taking into consideration how the bolt closes after the shot before the trigger is returned. I was just ignoring that.

          It would still be cool to see the chart though when using paint.
          Why doesnt anything work for me.

          Comment

          • CaliMagFan

            #6
            Originally posted by AGD
            Dry firing is NOT as efficient as shooting paintballs!! This is where you have to know whats going on inside the gun and not just guess because at first blush, you would think they would be the same.

            When firing a paintball, the bolt retracts and seals in some of the pressure in the chamber before it all escapes. This leaves a residual pressure in the chamber of about 50 psi which will be used in the next shot. If you dry fire it, the residual pressure is zero, you waisted that 50 psi residual.

            Use a longer barrel about 10" if you want better efficiency.

            AGD
            Tom-

            Was there ever any data on the psi inside the dump chamber that would be needed to counteract the force of the bolt spring? I'm thinking it would be easier to measure with a lvl7 bolt given that the pressure is more consistant during the length of the bolt travel. I guess what I'm asking is; if the bolt didnt release air at all, what pressure in the chamber would it take to get to move the bolt forward, say with the stock Lvl7 bolt spring and bolt.

            regards

            Comment

            • Lenny
              I AM the AO famous!
              • Dec 2003
              • 1628

              #7
              Originally posted by AGD
              Dry firing is NOT as efficient as shooting paintballs!! This is where you have to know whats going on inside the gun and not just guess because at first blush, you would think they would be the same.

              When firing a paintball, the bolt retracts and seals in some of the pressure in the chamber before it all escapes. This leaves a residual pressure in the chamber of about 50 psi which will be used in the next shot. If you dry fire it, the residual pressure is zero, you waisted that 50 psi residual.

              Use a longer barrel about 10" if you want better efficiency.

              AGD
              Is this why the level 10 reduces efficiency a bit? Because of the air hole allowing the residual to continue to vent? Hmm... it all makes sense now. I had always wondered why people say it reduces efficiency, but I always saw it as the total amount in the dump chamber being emptied completely in both bolt scenarios, basically lvl 7 dump = lvl 10 dump = entire chamber contents.

              Hmm... logical... Thanks Tom!
              Autocockers are the greatest markers ever made.
              ~The greatest BACKUP markers to AUTOMAGS!!

              Only temporary, get'n a new sig soon.

              Comment

              • SR_matt
                Santa Sucks
                • Jun 2006
                • 1072

                #8
                ^^ hmm then by that does that mean that u use more air with a tight bore becasue the lvl X has to push harder to get the ball in the barrel un like the stack tubes that push the ball in with the lpr pressure then shoot air out to push the ball out of the barrel.
                -matt

                Comment

                • jenarelJAM
                  Club Coordinator
                  • Dec 2004
                  • 1611

                  #9
                  I think he's saying that because there's a ball in the way, the pressure has to push the ball out before the air can escape(with some leakage), and the bolt will move back, sealing the valve before the ball can exit the gun, and so there will still be pressure in the chamber when it closes. When there's no ball, the air can just vent out. It will be able to completely vent before the bolt closes again because there's nothing stopping it.

                  Correct me if I'm wrong...
                  you know you play this game too much when the neighbors stop fixing their broken windows...
                  :shooting: :cuss:

                  Comment

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