CO2 Question's....

[cyrus-the-virus]

Sorry If all this info has been posted but I'd like to just look at one page for all my info.

That and I'm pretty much the local tech any more so I'd like to be able to answer people's questions with truthful and informed answers, rather than pbnation bandwagon answers.

Don, please don't post unless your going to make an informative post that you can backup with something other than "well my friend....." or "This guy I know.....". no offence or anything.....

and for some reason my cat is untieing my shoe

#1: Is it possible to fill a carbon fiber HPA bottle with CO2?
If not please explain.

#2: Is it possible to regulate CO2 using a HPA tank reg?

#3: If I can use a HPA reg with CO2, could I fill the tank through the nipple if I get the adapter?

#4: What is the cubic inch-to-once ratio for liquid CO2? In other word's how much space does one once of liquid CO2 take up?

#5: What's the lowest PSI That liquid CO2 can exist at?

#6: Will CO2 really damage O-ring seal's on most "high-end markers?
If so why, and can I get more CO2 resilient seals?

#7: Is it possible to replace the solenoid's of high end markers with one that has a higher pressure rating?
If so where is a good place to buy them and can you post a link?

#8: What is the best temperature to play with CO2?

#9: How will a siphon tube affect my performance on a "co2-friendly" marker(AKA blow-back)?

#10: Why hasn't anyone made a tank regulator for CO2 tank's?

#11: Are you sick of me asking questions yet?

Thanks for you answers and I look forward to reading them all and I hopew I didn't hurt your feeling's don.

Cheers

Cyrus

[punkncat]

#1: Is it possible to fill a carbon fiber HPA bottle with CO2?
If not please explain.

Seems like I read once that the freezing action actually causes some seperation between the carbon fiber and the liner. Been a while but at any rate I don't think I would do it. CO2 bottles or steel HPA bottles are much cheaper anyway

#2: Is it possible to regulate CO2 using a HPA tank reg?


I would think so long as you kept the bottle in a vert position that the reg would work fine. I doubt it would be able to handle liquid CO2

#3: If I can use a HPA reg with CO2, could I fill the tank through the nipple if I get the adapter?

Good question. I don't know if you can fill back through a reg. I would be concerned that the fill nipple oring would freeze and crack

#4: What is the cubic inch-to-once ratio for liquid CO2? In other word's how much space does one once of liquid CO2 take up?

#5: What's the lowest PSI That liquid CO2 can exist at?

This can easily be looked up, but its sub 300 psi IIRC

#6: Will liquid CO2 really damage O-ring seal's on most "high-end markers?
If so why, and can I get more CO2 resilient seals?

If you can positively eliminate the possibility of having liquid in the marker then it won't be damaged. High rates of fire can cause the components to cool, increasing the possibilty of flooding the regs with liquid, increasing pressure as it flashes and blowing out components, or freezing and cracking orings.


#7: Is it possible to replace the solenoid's of high end markers with one that has a higher pressure rating?
If so where is a good place to buy them and can you post a link?

#8: What is the best temperature to play with CO2?

Well of course warm weather is best. I read an article about some folks up north adapting markers to work solely on liquid CO2. They claimed consistant performance and decent efficency.

#9: How will a siphon tube affect my performance on a "co2-friendly" marker(AKA blow-back)?

A siphon tube is a required part of a correct horizonal tank setup.(imo)

#10: Why hasn't anyone made a tank regulator for CO2 tank's?

Because it would commonly freeze o rings and fail due to incorrect use.

#11: Are you sick of me asking questions yet?

Thanks for you answers and I look forward to reading them all and I hopew I didn't hurt your feeling's don.

Cheers

Cyrus

Replies beneath questions

[glickstue]

Since all the others have good answers I'll answer #10.

Someone has http://www.paintballcmi.com/reg_r-2000.htm

[wjr]

Since all the others have good answers I'll answer #10.

Someone has http://www.paintballcmi.com/reg_r-2000.htm

I've heard that those do not work so well.

I'd rather use a female palmer stab.

[cyrus-the-virus]

Any more insitefull information?

[KC]

Most of the questions can be answered with either

A# Co2 is VERY cold and unstable pressure wise.


B# Because HPA is available at such an affordable price
3 68/4500 Nitro tanks can be purchased at a cost of 175.00 from paintballgear.com.

Kristian

[cyrus-the-virus]

Most of the questions can be answered with either

A# Co2 is VERY cold and unstable pressure wise.


B# Because HPA is available at such an affordable price
3 68/4500 Nitro tanks can be purchased at a cost of 175.00 from paintballgear.com.

Kristian

Hurray for people who don't help

[ZapTheMad]

#10: Why hasn't anyone made a tank regulator for CO2 tank's?

I've used a CO2 specific tank reg. I think it was made by Thunder Pig, CO2000, or something like that. It still runs great on a cocker I traded to a friend for some computer stuff. Not terribly consistent by itself but works really well double regulated, anti-siphoned of course. It filled just like a co2 tank, thru the ASA threads. Filling forces the valve pin open since its going backwards thru the reg. I wouldn't do that with any other reg! This reg was designed for co2 use and it can take the beating of liquid fills. I doubt any HPA reg could stand up to that kind of abuse. CO2 freezes things, HPA heats them up, 2 completely different worlds.

Smart Parts had a dual gas system at one point. You could fill the tank with HPA or CO2. It was a fiber wrapped tank with a CO2 style on/off mounted on the tank, then screwed into one of thier (huge) bottomline regs. I think it took standard HPA fills thru the reg and you unscrewed the bottle for CO2fills. Don't know how the system works for sure, never owned one. But it is "possible" and probably not very noob friendly.

There might be more CO2 stuff around if HPA wasn't mainstream.

I've used many "non-co2" regulators with CO2 and had good luck. They work great, unless liquid gets in, usually toasting the seals, forcing an untimely rebuild. If you are careful about keeping liquid out, it's usually not a problem. The problem is that the "masses" aren't educated on proper handling and use. People take things for granted without learning as much as they can before using them. They get liquid in there equipment and the guys who build/fix the equipment just tell everyone to stop using the evil stuff. Problem solved.

I haven't used any HPA tank regs with CO2 and would not use them with CO2. You're only asking for trouble and possible injury.

I don't think CO2 really damages the orings directly. I'm sure most can take a deep freeze fairly well. It's doing thier job while frozen that destroys them. CO2 tank orings are a good example. They screw in and out many times without any problems. Then you hit a burst of liquid and it's R.I.P. for the poor little guy.

IMO, anti-siphon tubes are mandatory equipment on any CO2 gun, except liquid of course. But that means you have to match guns and tanks together and not mix them up. Kind of a pain, but worth it. If you set your FPS at 280 on gas, whats going to happen when it gets a shot of liquid? I don't particularly fancy that extremely hot ball coming at me!

The best temperature really depends on your gun. I think most un-regulated CO2 guns are designed to work at 70*, running about 850 PSI. But even at 70*, your tank will cool while firing, dropping pressure, and of course losing consistency.

Here's a chart on the stuff relating to temperature. http://www.aspaintball.com/pages/CO2-Chart.html

And a nice little FAQ.

http://www.ottersccustoms.com/air.html

[Beemer]

Questions with Questions

"Sorry If all this info has been posted but I'd like to just look at one page for all my info."

You should copy and paste it then.

That and I'm pretty much the local tech any more so I'd like to be able to answer people's questions with truthful and informed answers, rather than pbnation bandwagon answers.

Whats pbnation?


#1: Is it possible to fill a carbon fiber HPA bottle with CO2?
If not please explain.

Yes

#2: Is it possible to regulate CO2 using a HPA tank reg?

Yes

#3: If I can use a HPA reg with CO2, could I fill the tank through the nipple if I get the adapter?

Yes

#4: What is the cubic inch-to-once ratio for liquid CO2? In other word's how much space does one once of liquid CO2 take up?

One ounce of liquid CO2 has a volume of 0.877 cubic inches. The weight of 1 cu inch of liquid CO2 is 1.140 oz.

http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/gasses/co2dynamics.shtml#3

#5: What's the lowest PSI That liquid CO2 can exist at?

Liquid carbon dioxide forms only at pressures above 5.1 atm

It must be pressurized above 60.4 psi to remain as a liquid.

http://www.co2info.com/co2.html

http://www.uigi.com/carbondioxide.html

#6: Will CO2 really damage O-ring seal's on most "high-end markers?
If so why, and can I get more CO2 resilient seals?

Yes, No and yes. It will depend on what the rings are made of. Back in the day on Co2 I could freeze up my AutoMag tourny valve and recover after it warmed back up and it is a high-end valve.

#7: Is it possible to replace the solenoid's of high end markers with one that has a higher pressure rating? Probably but why?
If so where is a good place to buy them and can you post a link? Dont know dont care

#8: What is the best temperature to play with CO2?

What is room temperature

#9: How will a siphon tube affect my performance on a "co2-friendly" marker(AKA blow-back)?

Do you mean anti-siphon? A siphon tube will draw liquid Co2. What guns ran or run on Liquid Co2?

#10: Why hasn't anyone made a tank regulator for CO2 tank's?


They have. I have one on my Kegerator Tank

http://www.beveragefactory.com/draftbeer/regulators/secondary.shtml

http://www.beveragefactory.com/draftbeer/regulators.shtml

#11: Are you sick of me asking questions yet?

Yes. Are you sick of my sarcasm.


Peace Out

[cyrus-the-virus]

"Sorry If all this info has been posted but I'd like to just look at one page for all my info."

You should copy and paste it then.

I'm lazy

That and I'm pretty much the local tech any more so I'd like to be able to answer people's questions with truthful and informed answers, rather than pbnation bandwagon answers.

Whats pbnation?

A forum like AO only 30X bigger and full of uninformed idiot's who like to "spew" information.

http://www.pbnation.com/index.php

#7: Is it possible to replace the solenoid's of high end markers with one that has a higher pressure rating? Probably but why?

Better CO2 compatability, in the event of a pressure spike, it won't blow like the stock noid's.

#9: How will a siphon tube affect my performance on a "co2-friendly" marker(AKA blow-back)?

Do you mean anti-siphon? A siphon tube will draw liquid Co2. What guns ran or run on Liquid Co2?

VM-68's used to run on pur liquid CO2 as well(and got like 200 shot's out of a 20oz tank )

#10: Why hasn't anyone made a tank regulator for CO2 tank's?


They have. I have one on my Kegerator Tank

http://www.beveragefactory.com/draftbeer/regulators/secondary.shtml

http://www.beveragefactory.com/draftbeer/regulators.shtml

I mean that can be practicly used for paintball (actually I guess you could use it if your running remote or have a huge dropforward)

[SlartyBartFast]

Regulators for CO2?

Try Palmers: https://www.palmer-pursuit.com/ecom/index.php/cPath/22?

[__Phoenix__]

I suggest one of 3 things things... (assuming you don't want to use or have no access to HPA) The first two options let you use alot of co2 for the same price as getting an HPA system. The third option is a high end marker that can be run on Co2 very effectively and efficiently with the right setup.

1) buy a 20lb bulk tank which only cost $5 to fill and use typical co2 tanks with a palmer stab and refill on your own when empty --> Like this

2) CO2 pin valves fit on HPA tanks great and you can use anti-syphon too! I've seen it done and it works fine. Forget about the tank reg trying to control liquid stuff... use a palmer Stab if you must regulate it. If you really worry about the type of tank... just get one of those cheap 72cu P.E. steel tanks off ebay, but a fiber tank should work well too.

3) Get a viking ($350ish used) and run an anti-syphon co2 tank with palmer vert stab reg.

To answer your direct line of questioning: You can fill an HPA tank with Co2. The reg will most likely not back fill through the threads nor perform well if liquid gets to it - just use one of those SP on/off co2 pin valves.

[CoolHand]

Sorry If all this info has been posted but I'd like to just look at one page for all my info.

That and I'm pretty much the local tech any more so I'd like to be able to answer people's questions with truthful and informed answers, rather than pbnation bandwagon answers.

Don, please don't post unless your going to make an informative post that you can backup with something other than "well my friend....." or "This guy I know.....". no offence or anything.....

and for some reason my cat is untieing my shoe

#1: Is it possible to fill a carbon fiber HPA bottle with CO2?
If not please explain.

Yes, it is.

#2: Is it possible to regulate CO2 using a HPA tank reg?

Sometimes. SP MaxFlo tank regs work very well for CO2, especially the older over and under types.

#3: If I can use a HPA reg with CO2, could I fill the tank through the nipple if I get the adapter?

Yes, you can. Works fine, just need a female QD fitting from a remote system.

#4: What is the cubic inch-to-once ratio for liquid CO2? In other word's how much space does one once of liquid CO2 take up?

Well, a pint's a pound the world around (when talking about water), so the conversion goes like this:

There are 1.8046875 cubic inches in 1 fluid ounce.

Then it follows that a 68 cu in tank will hold 37.67 fluid ounces of water.

BUT, CO2 fills are done by weight, and 1 fluid ounce of CO2 does NOT weigh 1 ounce.

The density of CO2 is 1.03 (water is 1.00), so 1 fluid ounce of CO2 weighs 1.03 ounces.

So, to fill a 68 cu tank 100% full (which you should never do, BTW) you would weigh out 38.8 ounces of CO2 by weight.

HOWEVER, since you're only supposed to fill a tank about 80% full, you should shoot for about 30 ounces of CO2 BY WEIGHT.

That assuming of course that a tank marked 68 cu in actually holds 68 cu in.

You best bet is to measure the internal volume of the tank with water (in fluid ounces, remember 1 pint = 16 fluid ounces) and multiply the number you get by 0.824. The resulting answer is how much CO2 it will hold BY WEIGHT.

#5: What's the lowest PSI That liquid CO2 can exist at?

For practical purposes in paintball about 500 PSI, give or take depending on ambient temp.

#6: Will CO2 really damage O-ring seal's on most "high-end markers?
If so why, and can I get more CO2 resilient seals?

No, it won't. Liquid will freeze them and make them too stiff to seal properly, so they leak. Most times when they thaw back out again, they'll be just fine.

#7: Is it possible to replace the solenoid's of high end markers with one that has a higher pressure rating? Not really. There are a thousand different types of solenoids in use in PB markers today, you'll not find one to replace them all across the board. The best solution is to put an LPR between the CO2 source and the solenoid to isolate it from liquid and pressure spikes.
If so where is a good place to buy them and can you post a link? Nope, sorry.

#8: What is the best temperature to play with CO2?

Anything between about 100 Deg F, an 45 deg F.

#9: How will a siphon tube affect my performance on a "co2-friendly" marker(AKA blow-back)?

An anit-siphon tube will give you more shots per tank by forcing the liquid to expand before it can go to the marker. Every snort of liquid you take to make one shot, could have given ten or twelve shots if it had been gas.

#10: Why hasn't anyone made a tank regulator for CO2 tank's?

Because HPA is cool, and easier for the average joe PB kiddie to set up correctly. Palmers makes some very nice CO2 friendly regs, as does Smart Parts and AKA.

#11: Are you sick of me asking questions yet?

Nah, better to ask the question than to spout crap like so many do these days.

Thanks for you answers and I look forward to reading them all and I hopew I didn't hurt your feeling's don.

Cheers

Cyrus

Answers in red.

[cyrus-the-virus]

Answers in red.

Thank's coolhand I appreciate it