low-pressure

[HyperSnyper]

If this thread is about chopping, then we shouldnt be talking about pressures. Pressures dont chop, chopping is an issure related to the Loader and the feedsysytem. The Superbolt is another factor since in theory it creates more "bolt open time".

-Hyper

[HyperSnyper]

Originally posted by magic55

No kidding thats what i'm saying and you aren't making any sense. plain and simply if the mag had a lower pressure like a matrix or freeflow cocker or something it wouldn't break paint in the breech. take your mag and see if you can stick your finger in the breech and fire the bolt against it several times without getting hurt... its not gonna happen cause the bolt is at to high of a pressure compared to the other two guns i listed. you really aren't making sense you've said two completely opposite things.

Cockers are supposed be be "soft" on paint. Why dont you try and stick your finger in a COcker and pull the trigger... LoL.

-Hyper

[magic55]

i wouldn't in a regular cocker but in a freeflow i would. i love the feeling of a nice fresh bolt against my finger

[Nitroduck]

Ok......I need to show some people here something.

Opperating pressure and pressure on the ball are 2 different things....

Lets take a Mag.....

400psi Input Pressure......Yet 80psi hits ball.

How much force is exerted to force the mainspring to cycle? It isnt 80psi....After all, if it were 80psi, the gun wouldn't need 400psi to opperate.....Most of that pressure is used to cycle the bolt back/forth and the remainder is used to actually force the ball out.

Now........Bad part is with Mags (this is from my experiances), the Mag uses a much higher pressure to put the ball into the breach.....After all, the 400psi that is used to cycle the bolt forward hits the ball with a higher pressure than 80psi...Now, if say a paintball is halfway into the breach, and the gun fires, it will have a higher probability of cutting the paintball versus.....Lets say a Cocker, which uses a regulator specifically designed to cycle the bolt.

Want an example? Take a chop stick and put it into the feed tube of a Automag, and pull trigger. More than likely, it will cut the chopstick in half. Take a cocker, and do the same thing....It will not chop the chopstick in half....Now, that can be said for a paintball as well....Can a insane lower pressure be attained for a Mag so it wont chop? Maybe....I wonder why AGD hasnt tried (or atleast explained what results were) of using a softer mainspring.

Unfortunately, to make the Mag lower pressure (as far as I can tell), your going to have to tottally redesign the Mag......And I dont think that'll happen.....Its kinda like changing the design of the car from gas to hydrogen......

[hitech]

Originally posted by magic55
the pressure that moves the bolt forward on my gun is around 80psi give or take... its because there isn't alot of force (pressure) behind the bolt to shove it through the ball and cause a chop.

My stroker's bolt uses about 40 psi to move the bolt. It will chop a paintball if it isn't loaded properly. I don't know why your matrix doesn't chop. Maybe the cross sectional area of the "ram" that is moving the bolt forward is small. I don't know, esp. since I don't know anything about a matrix.

[HyperSnyper]

Originally posted by Nitroduck


Want an example? Take a chop stick and put it into the feed tube of a Automag, and pull trigger. More than likely, it will cut the chopstick in half. Take a cocker, and do the same thing....It will not chop the chopstick in half....Now, that can be said for a paintball as well....Can a insane lower pressure be attained for a Mag so it wont chop? Maybe....I wonder why AGD hasnt tried (or atleast explained what results were) of using a softer mainspring.

Hmmm...

I think a paintball is a little more brittle than a chop stick. Heres a better test, try putting a paintball half way into the breach then pull the trigger. Will the paint chop in half?

Hmmm... someone's gotta try this to confirm, but Im pretty sure that it WILL chop.

Why spend $1K on a FreeFlow, when you can just spend $100 on a HALO and use whatever gun you want?

-Hyper

[magic55]

i used a boiled shrimp once and it didn't do anything so i use my finger then a ball and you can fire the bolt on the ball several times and it won't chop depending how brittle the paint is.

[Butterfingers]

There are pros and cons.

Your gun will only feed when the bolt is out of the way of the flow of paintballs.

Faster bolts means more open bolt times which equals faster feeding. Low pressure bolts have the disadvantage of cycling slower leaving lower open bolt times.

Although your gun may not chop there will be an increased probability of dud shots from half fed paintballs that a faster cycling gun will already have fully chambered.

A free flow will never be able to feed paint at 18 BPS like in the e-mag halo videos because at that ROF the bolt isn't open long enough to even force a paintball into the breach. If you have a chance to check out the racegun mod on a freeflow you have to jack that pnumatic pressure up to make it feed at 12 bps. Anything faster is nearly impossible to feed, even with a warp feed.

Try making the matrix fire off 18 bps w/halo with no skipped shots. It wont happen.

With the advent of new feed systems chopping is a problem of the past. 6 cases on my e-mag/warp not 1 chop yet (knock on wood). Why passively prevent feed problems when it can easily be actively prevented.

[magic55]

i'm getting a halo soon then i'll get a bolt kit and full auto board and i'll let you know if it works. if it does that will be awesome. i think it will cause it is very fast and with the halo it shouldn't have a problem

[HyperSnyper]

The way I see it, the "Mag are blenders and chop more than any other gun" statement is just as false as "Closed bolt makes you shoot farther and flatter".

The feeding system seems to be the core factor in the chopping. Go to PaintballCity's forums and check out the other guns. Angels are having a helluvah lotta probs with their chopping. There are some that are even considering selling their guns for another one. Same stuff goes on here. Same stuff goes on in the Spyder forums, Piranha, etc. Moral of the story... ALL guns will have problems, its just a matter of time til a solution is found, then everyone can be happy with the gun they have =).

-Hyper

[steveg]

I have read some were on this forum that a force of less
than 10lbs on the bolt will not break a miss fed ball

the force on any mag bolt when cocked is about 18~20 lbs
(remember the bolt is a piston until it travels far enough
to release the air)

This force is going to break any miss fed ball

Markers like the cocker,matrix,excalibur,angel,etc all
have bolts operated by a piston (ram). by design or
as an addon the ram pressure is regulated separately from
the propelling pressure.

If you can turn the ram operating force down to less than
10lbs. the bolt will hit the ball, stop, and retract.

The real issue is feeding the ball successfully.

If the mag feeds cleanly it won't chop, if it doesn't,
the ball doesn't have a chance.


just thought that I'd add this

http://forums.paintballcity.com/showthread.php?threadid=211070

the halo guy's are experiencing that the maximum sustained (full auto ) feed speed for a vertical feed
is about 13bps and about 18bps for powerfeed

[magic55]

i think this thread is getting a little off track. Mag just wanted to know if there was anyway to lower the pressure of his mag to make it so it doesn't chop. i think we can all agree that the answer is NO. if you don't want to chop get a faster hopper and an electric frame so you can't short stroke.

[HyperSnyper]

AMEN BROTHER =)

-Hyper

[hitech]

Originally posted by magic55
i think this thread is getting a little off track.

Yes it is. I found the off track stuff a "good read".

[sniper1rfa]

we are all forgetting the fact of piston diameter. if the piston diameter is 1/8 in (cocker ram)then the piston area is .012 in squared. area times pressure determines the force of a piston. so say your cocker ram is operating at 40 psi, it is giving 40*.012 or .48 units of force. now lets say the diameter of a mag power tube is 1/4 in. at 40 psi, your bolt is giving 7.85 units of force. much more than is needed to chop a ball, pluse the pressure in the power tube is in reality much higher. so a piston with a diameter of 1/8 at 40 psi is rather comfortable to a ball, a piston with a 1/4 in diameter is more than enough to demolish it at the same pressure.