Why?

[RogueFactor]

But if you read into the arguement. There is to "some" no control and or skill in firing mutiple balls out of marker with enhancements like ramping. Make no mistake about it,"there is still control". Just like there is control firing of a shotgun. You have control of your swing and your choke to munipulated the spread of your shot pattern to hit your intended target at a given range.

Your making my point for me. Shooting skill when firing a shotgun is done so by the shooter.

So, until shotguns are fired by a computer in rapid-fire sequence(ramping), I dont see your analogy making any sense.

[Zygote]

ramping may not require skill ill agree with you there,but it doesn't take away from the difficulty of the game...and how much skill does pulling a trigger really take anyway..i mean come on...

It certainly does remove some of the difficulty. If it didn't make the game easier why would players have risked getting caught and illegally ramped in the first place with the cheater boards that were such a big deal a few years ago? It gave them an advantage by removing the distraction of actually having to shoot their gun.

Whether legal ramping is a good thing or not can be debated. Whether it makes playing the game easier can not.

[Lohman446]

Whether legal ramping is a good thing or not can be debated. Whether it makes playing the game easier can not.

Oh? I would argue that is very open for debate. If it makes it easier to eliminate someone it makes it conversly harder to not be eliminated.

[Lohman446]

There is little argument that shooting fast without ramping is a skill that can be achieved through practice. Those who favor allowing ramping favor removing it from the skill set (which we have effectively done).

Thos who oppose ramping can do so on a number of grounds. One obviously is that it should be part of the skill set tested in a game. Valid, logical argument, however no more valid than the argument that it should not be allowed. If you think it should be part of the skill set (or not) it is hard to produce a logical argument that would sway you as both sides seem to have sound, logical arguments.

The other argument is a safety argument - ramping obviously does not meet ASTM standards. Now the debate goes into if it is safe or not. Whatever side of the ramping argument you take can influence this. The safety argument certainly works against ramping but there is some question if it is a valid argument or not without a lot of data to support that it is necessarily unsafe. Many people chose to err on the side of safety and just assumei t unsafe.

Of course there is the manufacturer argument for ramping - it allows an obvious target goal of 15BPS, brings down the price, allows more profit... etc. I doubt many players would make this argument. Oddly I bet its one of the main reasons we now have it.

Add to it the promotor argument, it makes it easier to enforce rules, evens the fields with the cheaters, etc. A bit of a cop out but true to a degree.

[RogueFactor]

Today anyone can have a very capable marker and not go broke doing it.

True. Instead, now they go broke playing the game.

Every sport has its "sunk cost" of buying equipment. It's the "recurring cost" of playing that is the biggest detractor for most. $100 per day of play, on average, on any continual basis, is more than this industries target market(14-22) can bare.

So, instead of more people playing the game, more people buy markers that they can mount on their wall and admire(because they cant afford to play a 15 bps game).

Good for mfr's, bad for the sport.

If you think it should be part of the skill set (or not) it is hard to produce a logical argument that would sway you as both sides seem to have sound, logical arguments.

For me, its easy to produce one to sway. A shooting sport should require player shooting skill as part of the skillset. It doesnt get any more basic than that.

How anyone can make the argument that a shooting sport shouldnt require the players have the skill of shooting as part of the skillset is a mystery to me. It would be like saying sprinting shouldnt require twitching your legs as part of the skillset, and I should be able to buy an ACME rocket to strap to my back to aid me in getting to the finish line.

When you can purchase an abilty that you otherwise dont have, it detracts from the sport. If a player who could only shoot 5 bps can purchase a board to shoot 15 bps, that isnt skill. If a player cant shoot off-hand can do so with ramp, that isnt an acquired skill---its been purchased.

The only argument Ive heard, and isnt a good, logical, or sound one...is that removing shooting from a shooting sport emphasizes moving. Interestinly, playing pump does the same thing---without having to remove skill to do so.

[p8ntbal4me]

There is little argument that shooting fast without ramping is a skill that can be achieved through practice. Those who favor allowing ramping favor removing it from the skill set (which we have effectively done).

Thos who oppose ramping can do so on a number of grounds. One obviously is that it should be part of the skill set tested in a game. Valid, logical argument, however no more valid than the argument that it should not be allowed. If you think it should be part of the skill set (or not) it is hard to produce a logical argument that would sway you as both sides seem to have sound, logical arguments.

The other argument is a safety argument - ramping obviously does not meet ASTM standards. Now the debate goes into if it is safe or not. Whatever side of the ramping argument you take can influence this. The safety argument certainly works against ramping but there is some question if it is a valid argument or not without a lot of data to support that it is necessarily unsafe. Many people chose to err on the side of safety and just assumei t unsafe.

Of course there is the manufacturer argument for ramping - it allows an obvious target goal of 15BPS, brings down the price, allows more profit... etc. I doubt many players would make this argument. Oddly I bet its one of the main reasons we now have it.

Add to it the promotor argument, it makes it easier to enforce rules, evens the fields with the cheaters, etc. A bit of a cop out but true to a degree.

This is why I BELIEVE we have capped ramping. I just cant see how its a good thing that you can not manually shoot 15BPS but the computer can give you that ROF. It all depends on the side you take that makes it good or bad. I agree with the fact that there is people out there that want to cheat and use the system to their advantage,... I think that there are always going to be good and bad no matter what side you take. Point being,.. someone is going to make out better over those that dont stand to make out at all in the deal. My example would be any manual gun over a ramping gun. If you can manually get your gun to fire up to the max ROF of 15BPS and you have an computer in your gun that makes it IMMPOSSIBLE to go above that ROF,... whats the deal with other guns that use the computer to get them up to that point and then cap their ROF at 15BPS. However you get there,.... you get there. The safety concern with the ROF is the same,... 15BPS. Why we cnt use bouncing guns that have a ROF cap is beyond me. Just my 2 cents,... now Im broke!

I just wanted to say that this is an AWESOME TOPIC. There is so much you can learn from the simple question of what is right and wrong and how you can proove your point to everyone else.

I hope this thread keeps going because I am enjoying the sides being drawn and the debate. Really good points on here.

[Lohman446]

True. Instead, now they go broke playing the game.

Every sport has its "sunk cost" of buying equipment. It's the "recurring cost" of playing that is the biggest detractor for most. $100 per day of play, on average, on any continual basis, is more than this industries target market(14-22) can bare.

So, instead of more people playing the game, more people buy markers that they can mount on their wall and admire(because they cant afford to play a 15 bps game).

Good for mfr's, bad for the sport.



For me, its easy to produce one to sway. A shooting sport should require player shooting skill as part of the skillset. It doesnt get any more basic than that.

How anyone can make the argument that a shooting sport shouldnt require the players have the skill of shooting as part of the skillset is a mystery to me. It would be like saying sprinting shouldnt require twitching your legs as part of the skillset, and I should be able to buy an ACME rocket to strap to my back to aid me in getting to the finish line.

When you can purchase an abilty that you otherwise dont have, it detracts from the sport. If a player who could only shoot 5 bps can purchase a board to shoot 15 bps, that isnt skill. If a player cant shoot off-hand can do so with ramp, that isnt an acquired skill---its been purchased.

The only argument Ive heard, and isnt a good, logical, or sound one...is that removing shooting from a shooting sport emphasizes moving. Interestinly, playing pump does the same thing---without having to remove skill to do so.

How effective has that argument been at swaying Rogue? You've produced a good sound byte, not a convincing argument

[REDRT]

Your making my point for me. Shooting skill when firing a shotgun is done so by the shooter.

So, until shotguns are fired by a computer in rapid-fire sequence(ramping), I dont see your analogy making any sense.

My point was that you can control the multiple shot pellets of a shotgun to hit your target (when you claimed you can't) just like you can control the paint fired from a electronically enhanced paintball marker with ramping modes to hit your target. As a recap you first classed the firearm to the marker so I went with it. My arguement is that even though a shotgun and a ramping marker is a ridiculous parody it still works out in a not so abstract sort of way. Back in the begining markers were more like a rifle or a pistol. One round per pull. Today we still have this one ball per pull in our snap shooting and so forth, but we also have ramping which does things much faster than what we could do humanly. Sometimes adding in shots and thus multiple shots are in the air more so than even the fastest fingers on a straight semi marker could do repeatedly. This is sort of like the single blast of a shotgun. Multiple shots one outcome if the triggerman is on target. If anything there is added skills that you have to possess now than back in the day to be a well rounded player. Seems the focus is on walking or faning the trigger vrs what ramping software has done. I'm saying there is the same skills only modified and honed differently with some added to be a competitive player, a well rounded player of today. The game has evolved, as has the equipment and the player had to follow. As I said before, "there is variety in paintball" . You don't have to do/play anything you don't want to. For thoughs of us that don't like high speed ramping markers or just want to play with our older markers there is games for all of us to take part in, to turn back the hands of time and enjoy being retro with like minded people.

[turbo chicken]

the answer to why is because the people that don't care don't post ... typically the ones who are real passionate(probably a strech) about something are the ones that speak out ... and that's what you see ...

id be willing to bet if you asked yes, no, undecided, or don't care in a poll... you'd get a good mixture of everything ...

[RogueFactor]

How effective has that argument been at swaying Rogue? You've produced a good sound byte, not a convincing argument

Its been pretty effective actually. Just working on the last few holdouts Dont think I will succeed with them though, they are stubborn.

But the glory is in the effort

My point was that you can control the multiple shot pellets of a shotgun to hit your target (when you claimed you can't) just like you can control the paint fired from a electronically enhanced paintball marker with ramping modes to hit your target.

You can individually control the pellets coming out of a shotgun shell? Really? You mean, you can say "I want pellet 12 to go left 6 ft , and 2 ft high, and pellet 4 to go 2 ft right, and 3 ft. high"?

If so, Ive got to see this, do you have video?

[p8ntbal4me]

You can individually control the pellets coming out of a shotgun shell? Really? You mean, you can say "I want pellet 12 to go left 6 ft , and 2 ft high, and pellet 4 to go 2 ft right, and 3 ft. high"?

If so, Ive got to see this, do you have video?

I KNEW you were going to say that!! LOL

[REDRT]

"RogueFactor"




You sure come off as pretty dense.

2 a : slow to understand : STUPID, THICKHEADED

[RogueFactor]

"RogueFactor"

You sure come off as pretty dense.

2 a : slow to understand : STUPID, THICKHEADED

It only comes across that way on the internet.But, maybe you are right. I am too dense to see the correllation between your examples, and your intellect went right over my head.

Ive had this same discussion with a Jr. Olympic Skeet Shooter. He understood completely about trigger discipline, and the skill required to shoot accurately. And that ramping/bouncing/full-auto removes that skill.

[p8ntbal4me]

It only comes across that way on the internet.But, maybe you are right. I am too dense to see the correllation between your examples, and your intellect went right over my head.

Ive had this same discussion with a Jr. Olympic Skeet Shooter. He understood completely about trigger discipline, and the skill required to shoot accurately. And that ramping/bouncing/full-auto removes that skill.

Hey Rogue,.. whats up wit your site?? I wanted to get some frames from you but cant even get into the site now. I got any prices on products you offer you can PM me?? Frames, triggers, bodies, etc. Pics would be nice too!!!

Still working out my design on my frame internals,.. need to make sure they interface with other frames. Thanks!

[RogueFactor]

Hey Rogue,.. whats up wit your site?? I wanted to get some frames from you but cant even get into the site now. I got any prices on products you offer you can PM me?? Frames, triggers, bodies, etc. Pics would be nice too!!!

Still working out my design on my frame internals,.. need to make sure they interface with other frames. Thanks!

My site(www.roguepaintballgear.com & www.roguesportz.com) are both under construction. You can e-mail me at [email protected] ,and I will get you hooked up.

If you prefer to buy from an online retailer that carries my product, I refer that business to www.themagsmith.com & www.tunamart.com . They are most times cheaper than if you buy directly from me.

either way, hit me up with an e-mail and let me know what you are looking for.

Thanks!