Think the team may be about to dissolve

[punkncat]

Myself and the other team capt. have about had it. He is trying to pass his responsibility on to me so he can "just play". I have mixed intrest myself with hot weather, my physical shape and age, and my new intrest which is finacially killing me.

We are on the verge of eliminating the second of our two new players. I had spoken in a previous post about the one who has been and continues to be irresponsible about his debts. He is gone. Well, the other is talented, but his chemistry for the team is "off" and he is also the other guys buddy, so ASA we get rid of the one I am sure he will go as well.
Once again we find ourselves short handed right before a tourney. We will only have five for Chatt. so it leaves no room for injury, or failures. There is no way at this point to bring someone else on board and get them "in sync" before then.

The sponsor is experiancing some growing pains, and as well intentioned as he was, may not be able to live up to his finacial obligations to the team as well. Its not that he won't, but that he would put himself out to live up to his word. Between myself and the other capt. we just can't in good conscience continue to let him do this w/o something changing.

We are at the point now where we hate to see the hard work and practice go to waste. We have had a couple of really good practices in the past month. The team is becoming more skilled every time we get together. The core is only getting better and stronger together.....and yet, here we are.

To anyone thinking about putting together a serious team, know that its HARD work. Requires a lot of dedication and time that you will not be compensated for, and generally rewarded with a lot of disappointment. The bright spots are few and far between. And short lived.

[Lohman446]

Rogue, thinking along those lines.

Doesn't golf have a very distinct difference between what defines an amatuer and a pro?

I would like to see far more amatuer tournaments with a smaller entry fee and titles/trophies. Cheap enough that teams cannot simply be there to "recoup" costs. I hear some people justify cheating with "theres money on the line". Coward justification in my mind, but hey some people use it. I see no problem in getting rid of it myself.

Just thinking....

[punkncat]

Confirm something for me....

1) Is cost a major factor in keeping the team going?
2) If cost is a major factor, at what point would it have to become less expensive to not be a major issue?
3) If cost is a major factor, which cost is the most pressing? Paint? Field fees? Hardware expense? Travel expenses? Tournament fees?
4) How many of the tournaments do you play for the sole purpose of recouping your costs from the prizes won if you were to place in the top 3?
5) How many tournaments would you rather have better reffing than large prize packages for the winners?

Cost is always a major consideration for ANY team, so of course.

To be honest, for me continued intrest is not even an issue at this level. Its really fun and challenging, but the cost and commitment to truly compete at this level is astonishing. Paint budget alone is a serious consideration if you are looking to make finals in a series. Without the situation that I fell into I would not be, nor will I continue to compete at this level.

Moreso than the expense is the planning and coordination of the details. Times, places, people....its all a huge drain, especially when dealing with youngins. No offence intended to anyone.

I have never gone to a tourney intending to win and recoup costs.

I honestly wish that everywhere I went to play had the type of reffing I see playing in the CFOA. Its great to see charge taken by the refs over the players, and some order in place. Most commercial fields have turned into a crap shoot of cheating and favor. More than a prize that I never go intending to win, I like to see honest and fair games.

[RogueFactor]

Cost is always a major consideration for ANY team, so of course.

...but the cost and commitment to truly compete at this level is astonishing. Paint budget alone is a serious consideration if you are looking to make finals in a series. Without the situation that I fell into I would not be, nor will I continue to compete at this level.

I realize that cost is an issue. I was hoping you could give me some insight into your specific situation as to let me know which of the costs involved is the most pressing. And if there was only 1 that could be changed, would it have an effect in improving your teams issues.

Moreso than the expense is the planning and coordination of the details. Times, places, people....its all a huge drain, especially when dealing with youngins. No offence intended to anyone.

Is there any aspect of the planning and coordination that you think is specific to the sport of paintball and not to all sports as a whole?


Thanks for the time youve taken in answering. There were a few striking statements you made that are VERY intriguing and things Ive been working on myself so that if the day comes that I want to run a team, I could avoid some of these pitfalls.

[punkncat]

...if there was only 1 that could be changed, would it have an effect in improving your teams issues.


Is there any aspect of the planning and coordination that you think is specific to the sport of paintball and not to all sports as a whole?

I would say the hardest aspect is dealing with the unreliability and fickle nature of (many) paintballers. Especially as related to a private sport...as opposed to a school sport or organization (county rec., church league, etc.) I don't think it relates specifically to paintball, so much as just the fact that there is no real structure to it. Like trying to get any other group of enthusiasts together for something organized.
Everyone has their own idea of whats good for them, and team is hard to comprehend. Especially considering the age group that most paintballers fall in. No ride, no job, no money, and simply don't care.

[CKY_Alliance]

I would say the hardest aspect is dealing with the unreliability and fickle nature of (many) paintballers. Especially as related to a private sport...as opposed to a school sport or organization (county rec., church league, etc.) I don't think it relates specifically to paintball, so much as just the fact that there is no real structure to it. Like trying to get any other group of enthusiasts together for something organized.
Everyone has their own idea of whats good for them, and team is hard to comprehend. Especially considering the age group that most paintballers fall in. No ride, no job, no money, and simply don't care.

I'll second that...



I would say the worst cost is paint, mainly because you are constantly having to buy it. Unlike event fees which happen once a month and equipment prices which are also a one time expendeture.

[PumpMag]

I'll second that...



I would say the worst cost is paint, mainly because you are constantly having to buy it. Unlike event fees which happen once a month and equipment prices which are also a one time expendeture.

Agreed. One major reason my team plays pump tournaments. Less paint, more honor.
Less money, more fun.

We've seen players drop out, let go of, or lose interest. And now with the new mix of players, both young and old, the future looks promising. We've set goals to play more semi tourneys, now that the core of players have shown true dedication.

Building the team takes a lot of work, but everyone on the team willing to do their part goes a long way.

We practice with our semis when a semi event is near, but we still bring our pumps too. So when the paint gets low, it's time to go old school paintball!

[gus13]

I'll second that...



I would say the worst cost is paint, mainly because you are constantly having to buy it. Unlike event fees which happen once a month and equipment prices which are also a one time expendeture.

QFT! paint costs are always a major issue as you have to guesstimate how much paint you are going to be using/how many games your gonna be playing. add in also how many times a month your gonna want to practice and how much paint you'll go through for that. so yah paint prices are a constant issue, no matter when or where you play.

Another thing I personally ran into is the idea of an actual organized practice, and I don't mean the ones where you go to the field and just play a coupla games, that isn't practice, thats just playing. I mean stuff like Drills, snapshooting, break shooting, gunfighting, laning all that fun stuff that everyone just absolutely loves to do I found on my last team the very mention of a "scenario drill" ie its a 4 on 3 guys are already at their bunkers etc etc. it was a dirty word that was just not to even be speculated, sad to say they help a lot but no, not to be thought of at all. so be forwarned, if you want to do anything of that nature be prepared for some resistance. (now that was in my experience, not going to guarantee you'll run into that yourself)
just a heads up!
gus

[viper-mayhem]

Punkncat, I feel your delima. Our team is going thru having to "LET GO" one player due to irresponsible actions and disrupting the team spirit. This new season, other than myself and the field captain, we had to start over with all new players and already having to boot 1 person off is devastating. But as a team, you have to muddle on. Like Cancer, cut out the rotting part to save the living. Good luck with that. V-M

[athomas]

Paint costs are always the biggest expense. It takes a real commitment from players to go out and have a dedicated practice every week or two. I know we started with a full team of 12 back in Jan. We lost a couple to lack of motivation/funding to come out but we filled the spots. Then we lost a couple more to funding and other family issues (usually money related). After a couple of injuries, here we are with only 2 weeks to go to start a major xball series and we only have 9 guys. I expect we will shoot 30 cases of paint in 2 games during that weekend. There isn't even anything for winning your games. After the series (7 games) is over at the end of the summer, the winning team gets $6000.00. We go into this realizing we are probably not going to recoup our costs. We will probably shoot 100 cases of event paint during the 7 games. Add the cost of travel fees and other expenses plus practice and we are in the hole even if we win. We have been practicing since Jan. We do it because we want to win. Its about the prestige, not the money. Anyone who thinks they are going to make money in tournaments is in it for the wrong reasons and will stop having fun. We enter a few other 5 man tournys to fill the gaps along the way as well. In the last 5man tourny, we placed 2nd(tied for 1st in points) and 4th. Even the 2nd place team didn't recoup the costs of playing the tourny. The tourny before that we placed 1st but only broke even on costs.

Go out, play ball, have fun and if you win doing it, what a bonus. If everyone played the events that were economical, then the organizers would start holding more of those tournaments.

punkncat: Stay with your core guys and pick up a ringer here and there to fill the gaps when needed. Eventually you will find the extra guy or guys you need to fill your team. Don't compromise your team. It destroys the fun. It is a lot of work to run a team, but the rewards are big if you find the right guys.

[athomas]

So, if there was no prize package, youd still expend all the same resources and play just to win? If so, I think you are in the very small minority.

No, not quite what I meant. Its risk vs reward. Most teams, especially inexperienced teams are not going to make the podium. These teams look at tournaments from the point of "how much is it going to cost me to play?" A team that consistently wins looks at it from the point of "how much can I expect to win?" There are more teams in the first category than the 2nd. A couple of powerhouse teams winning all the money discourages the other teams from entering higher priced tournaments because they feel that they are just funding the few top teams. eg; If I had a chance to play 2 tournaments, one is going to cost me $500 to play with a chance to win $1000.00 and the 2nd is going to cost me $1000 with the chance to win $2000.00, which one is my best investment. If I don't think I have a chance of placing in the top 2, I'm probably going to go for the cheaper one, because at the end of the day, my out of pocket expenses are guarranteed to be less. If I think I can crack the top 2, then I may entertain the more expensive tourny. Most of the time 2nd place only covers your costs to play, so really if you can't win first, then your best investment in playing is always the cheaper tourny.

Im curious as to what this is supposed to imply.

Organizers want players at their fields. Tournaments make them money and give them exposure. Lets face it, if you can get 40 teams at a tournament, and each team averages 8 cases of paint (averaged between various 3 man and 5man divisions), theres money to be made. If I hold a tourny that offers $4000 1st prize, but costs $800 to enter plus $75.00 a case for paint, I am going to appeal to a certain number of teams. If I offer $1000 1st prize and $200 entry plus $60.00 a case for paint, I am going to appeal to a larger audience. If more teams show up for the less expensive tourny, then I stand to make more money in volume of paint sold, even at slightly lower prices. More teams go away with a satisfaction that they got to play as cheaply as possible without feeling that they were just there to pay for a few select teams that were predicted to win anyway. So, do I want a tourny with 15 teams (or less) and a big prize pool, or do I want a tourny with 40 teams and a smaller prize pool?


For both questions, it always boils down to risk vs reward. In any given area, there are only a handfull of teams that can consistenly win. All others are just players. Its these players that provide the funding, so they must attend so that there is a prize pool for the teams to win. If its too expensive to play, then they will go where it is more economical. In our area, I see tournaments getting cheaper and cheaper to play due to players going where the cost is reduced.

There does get to a point where it doesn't get cheap enough vs no reward (ie; trophys only). There is always a basic paint cost that will never go below a certain retail valve. There has to be enough value for the organizer and there has to be at least a bit of incentive to win for the player. There is definately a balance that must be reached to make it good for both parties.

[Crazy]

What level are you guys playing at?
Dealing with trouble players can be a hard thing in this sport, especially with the younger kids in it now a days. Some think they're hot shots and deserve everything, and others just aren't responsible enough to handle a team commitment.

[AGDRetro]

Our team did the whole tournament thing for s short while but most of us have bigger commitments now. In the past 2 years my teammates have bought houses, cars had kid, changed jobs... you know all the fun stuff that comes with growing old and getting "established". Of our core gang, I am the last to be getting married (this fall). There was a time when we would play EVERY weekend, those days are long over and we are lucky to play twice a month.

At tournaments and through regular rec play and big events (Castle Conquest and the likes) however we have made a ton of friends and I think we will be making a move to a team more like Blue's Crew. Yea we can play hard, but these days we dont have the time for tournament commitments and really we just want to have fun. I expect our crew of 7 serious tournament players to become a group of around 15 great guys that just love to play. It may be a similar move for you, the lack of tournament commitments remove s a ton of stress and just lets you get back to enjoying the game!

But as always play hard and let the other guys know that when called upon you can still shoot with the best of em!

[Lohman446]

When I was playing with serious teams, and acting as captain I often enough considered a few things. This is one general idea I had considered

Is it possible to run a paintball team like a condominium complex, or a business in general? Its not perfectly thought out, because the people I considered doing it with... well it would not have worked.

Say I take $1000, put it in a seperate team account, and divide it into ten shares - each share worth $100 to begin with.

I se the rules for the team, involving how people can be removed (very well spelled out), compensation, etc. I then offer the team (lets say five man) for sale. We enter an enforceable contract. Each share worth 1 vote in team dealings - and I offer them for sale. I decide I want to maintain control of the team so I keep 6 shares.

In the end we have $1000 in an account, and each player has a certain amount of shares - I have kept the money in my pocket as a personal gain to offset the original $1000 - so we have 10 shares representing $1000. The team owns all trademarks, etc. associated with the team. Each share votes once a year (or however often) on a team captian to handle things (perhaps with appropriate payment).

We pay dues into the team - say $200 per month per share - this goes into the general account. This gives the team a $2000 per month budget. All expenses associated with the team need to come out of this budget - one way or another. We need to plan. All winnings go back into this account. Every player now has an invested interest in the team (and have proven they can financially support it). If the team gets into a point where it is self sufficient then dues can go away. All payments / dues are to be based on shares to avoid a captain "paying" himself better than others.

If the team gains money then your "stake" in it becomes worth more, because each share represents 10% of that budget. However, we treat it like a stock, You want to leave the team you need to sell your share in it to someone. Say theres $2000 in the account your share is theoretically worth $200. You sell it to someone else and you keep the $200 to represent what you have put in to getting the team there (both money and effort) Its going to be assumed that only those serious about competing will put out the money to buy into a team. Maybe the team buys it back out of the team funds to sell to someone else later down the road.

Say you need a spare player for something. You as a team can make the offer to pick someone up for a tournament without ever making them part of the financials. The team fund "purchases" (or doesn't as most pickup players cover there own expenses) that persons services for the time(s) you need them.

Its a rough idea, Im not serious enough to put together a serious team, but if I ever do there is going to be financial committment to do so. Its going to be something along this lines, better thought out. Understand this is the very first rough draft written down.

[Aggravated Assault]

Well thought out. Have you considered at level this hypothetical team would need to play at/how many events per season/ how many times in the money, to keep things rolling. Or would you figure the monthly dues would be enough if things were lean?