G-Force to release pneumatic frames for the Mags

[Chris Nearchos]

The set screw acts as a sear stop behind the sear arm/extender to prevent over travel. This screw is what is causing the black mark shown in Looper's pics. The pic which shows wear from the ram is on the other side of the extender and kind of looks like scratches (if there is indeed some gouging, it's not that obvious in the pics)

hmm, must be something added/modded after the manual was done up. i am not seeing that anywhere behind the sear extender.


i do have one question for all the other users/owners. how are the two areas for the trigger stops for yoru frames? the upper trigger stop and the lower trigger stop.

-Chris

[insixdays777]

AO lets lay off the he said she she said about this homebrew vs Gforce. And focus on the problems that face alot of us about this frame:

PROBLEM:

1) No LPR - Garth is working on it and has been answering questions and providing updates so things are moving in the correct direction.

2) The Sear Extender issue - the wear issue is bothersome and will be an issue with the long term durability of the extender/frame. Will Garth's LPR help? YES. Does not using a tickler help? YES. Does running a PPS Rock help? YES

But the sear extender still will wear...

Is there a better solution out there? A long term solution? A better sear extender? A better sear?

AO has conquered bigger problems!

[Hilltop Customs]

The set screw acts as a sear stop behind the sear arm/extender to prevent over travel. This screw is what is causing the black mark shown in Looper's pics. The pic which shows wear from the ram is on the other side of the extender and kind of looks like scratches (if there is indeed some gouging, it's not that obvious in the pics)

Thanks, I didnt notice there was a stop behind the extender to stop over travel....was wondering why there were marks on both sides of the extender.

This makes me even more curious to how the tickler was causing damage? I originally thought there was no stop besides the sear travel limit...if that was the case then over pressurization would bend or snap the extender off, but with a stop in place thats much less likely to happen. I guess it could still happen at initial impact of the ram and sear.

[Chris Nearchos]

Does not using a tickler help?

if you fix the issue with the sear setup, you will take away almost all the pains of using a tickler (other then losing a few shots of the tank). if you want an easy quick easy solution, get a harden strike plate onto the sear and you will be golden to go. (ie, bolt head, cover plate, luke's solution, or a new sear)

***EDIT***
cheap easy solution for the issue on the back side of the extender: (used on the screw...not the extender). just use an epoxy or super glue to put onto the set screw. will also give a bit of "bounce back" like a micro switch.



**end edit***

-Chris

[skyless]

just checked my sear extender out after 400 shots or so (a few games of play) and it has a pretty noticable depression from the set screw. Hardly any wear from the ram. Defiently need a good solution for this, i cant see this extender lasting too long.

[Hilltop Customs]

how much of the sear stop set screw is exposed? Is there enough room for a 8-32(think thats the size mentioned earlier) nut to be thrown and loctite'd on? a larger surface area wont cause nearly as much damage....I hope the setscrew is normal to the contacting sear extender surface

might be able to get away with an plastic acorn nut....that would cut down on noise too. Sand down the nose of the acorn nut to the correct length and thread it onto exposed set screw. I hope theres enough room, because other than installing an internal ram stop, expanding the impact surface area of the setscrew would be the way to solve the problem. Lower pressure would also solve the issue, but that sacrifices performance no matter what LPR your dealing with.

[insixdays777]

I am going to run to Ace hardware today...they should have a lot of cheap options to fix the issues...I think the main issues is with the rear sear stop screw, rubber bumper or nylon screw tip should fix it. I also think Coating the sear extender in DIP (rubber tool "paint") will stop the piston from wearing on the extender.

I will be sure to post up my findings.

[flyingpootang]

You can reverse the set screw and insert a piece of o-ring.....
Click on pics to enlarge:

[warbeak2099]

Lower pressure would also solve the issue, but that sacrifices performance no matter what LPR your dealing with.

Not really? If you have a higher volume LPR, you can cycle just as fast, just as consistently at lower pressures. That's the whole point. If you have an LPR that runs consistently at 25psi, then you're going to drastically reduce possibility of damaging the sear extender while at the same time retaining performance.

[Chris Nearchos]

Not really? If you have a higher volume LPR, you can cycle just as fast, just as consistently at lower pressures. That's the whole point. If you have an LPR that runs consistently at 25psi, then you're going to drastically reduce possibility of damaging the sear extender while at the same time retaining performance.

no, hilltop is saying that if the piston is operating at a lower pressure that it will hit the sear extender with less force cause less damage to be done. BUT if you lower the pressure on the piston, just because of how it works, you will lose speed and performance of the piston. and i support hilltops statement on that.

in the end with the whole debate on lprs (shelf product, tickler, garfs custom), doesnt matter how it works (as in the how much volume over the pressure). it honestly comes down to the sear extender being too soft. if you fix the sear extender issue, it doesnt matter what lpr you use. cause then you are at the point of being like it doesnt matter if you hit it with a pin or a hammer head, as long as the reaction time (pressure and force) of the piston is set correctly to make the correct reaction, you are good to go.

heck, if garf would fix the issue with a better sear extender (even if you ladies and gents had to pay for it), it would fix pretty much all issues of the of this whole thing and make the frame what he claimed it to be. the best p-mag aftermarket frame out their.


but i guess since garf "gave his blessing to AO" to "fix" his product, i guess its up AO to fix it as they see fit. but you ladies and gents should look into luke and his solutions to sear extending. it would be well worth it if garf doesnt want to step up to the plate.

-Chris

[Hilltop Customs]

Not really? If you have a higher volume LPR, you can cycle just as fast, just as consistently at lower pressures. That's the whole point. If you have an LPR that runs consistently at 25psi, then you're going to drastically reduce possibility of damaging the sear extender while at the same time retaining performance.

A higher flow LPR doesnt change the internal orifice size of the 3 way which the air has to be pushed through. Higher pressure means faster reaction time through the 3 way, no way to get around it. The benefit of lowering the pressure and additional 10-20 psi is? maybe and additional 2 or 3 shots per tank?

edit* lowering the pressure would do less damage to the sear extender, but in the end your beating a piece of aluminum onto a small surface area of a setscrew with a tiny hammer TENS of THOUSANDS of times.

continuining edit* solving the problem simply comes back to 1 of 3 things:
1: Lower the forces(pressure) involved until there is no noticeable surface deformation from the impacts. Causmetic damage would be unavoidable, but actual deformation needs to be avoided. Since lowering the pressure has a detremental effect other options need to be considered first.
2: Expand the surface areas involved. Pinch the sear extender between larger surfaces until no deformation is apparent. No real decremental effects, in fact increasing pressure would be feasible.
3: Use a harder sear extender to avoid deformation. Once again increasing pressure above current limits would be an option.

[insixdays777]

in the end with the whole debate on lprs (shelf product, tickler, garfs custom), doesnt matter how it works (as in the how much volume over the pressure). it honestly comes down to the sear extender being too soft. if you fix the sear extender issue, it doesnt matter what lpr you use. cause then you are at the point of being like it doesnt matter if you hit it with a pin or a hammer head, as long as the reaction time (pressure and force) of the piston is set correctly to make the correct reaction, you are good to go.


-Chris

AMEN!

[warbeak2099]

A higher flow LPR doesnt change the internal orifice size of the 3 way which the air has to be pushed through. Higher pressure means faster reaction time through the 3 way, no way to get around it. The benefit of lowering the pressure and additional 10-20 psi is? maybe and additional 2 or 3 shots per tank?

I don't think anyone said anything about efficiency or shots per tank. It's ridiculous to bring it up. Has anyone used the frame with an LPR that can handle 25psi consistently at high rofs? If not, let's wait till Garf finishes his LPR and see if the frame will actually cycle consistently at high rof's with such a low pressure.

[G-Force Tech]

The frames were designed at the time with full sized external LPRs. I also tried the Ticklers but didn't like them so I went back to the larger LPRs.

I have nothing against Ticklers but I am not recommending them on this frame. If you think it makes no difference its up to you to use it.

In order for a sleeper type LPR to work in the grip, a full sized design has to be custom made but in a micro package which in itself has its limits and challenges. I thought at the time everyone wanted a sleeper look but I guess I was wrong.

As for the PSI thing, the frames will fire with no problems with pressures around 25psi. If want higher ROF, the you need to increase the pressure further. This is no where close to the pressure it takes for the Tickler to operate effectively. With a Micro Rock or standard Rock, the actuator is much gentler on the sear extender than a Tickler.

Also by running a Tickler, the MSV-1 valve also requires more finger pressure to operate.

On a DIY frame where a MSV-2 is used, the lever compensates the higher trigger pressure generated to the valve by the Tickler, In our frames, the MSV-1 is directly actuated by the trigger without the lever so having lower pressures to the MSV-1 is important here.

Our frame are the reverse of the DIY frames. DIY use high actuator pressure to trip the sear, and a MSV-2 valve. Ours uses a custom sear extender that corrects the leverage point to trip the sear, and requires a high volume LPR to keep lower operating pressures to the actuator and MSV-1 valve.

Our frames do use less air but regardless, the MSV-1 or MSV-2 still expells valuable air into the atmosphere each time you pull the trigger. The E Mag is still the best way for boosting ROF without consuming more air.

Garf

[Hilltop Customs]

I don't think anyone said anything about efficiency or shots per tank. It's ridiculous to bring it up. Has anyone used the frame with an LPR that can handle 25psi consistently at high rofs? If not, let's wait till Garf finishes his LPR and see if the frame will actually cycle consistently at high rof's with such a low pressure.

My point has nothing to do with the efficiency, my point is: what is there to gain by lowering the pressure? other than to avoid damaging a product which could have been easily designed to withstand the conditions of higher pressure abuse.