computerized analysis of team tactic

[rahimi_saeed]

Thank you all

this already exists, it was done in the early 90's. I am sure it will be better this time around, edit:I'll see if I can get you a reference.

Dear Latches109,

Will you help me to achieve the software or any other material in this case?
thank you very much

[rahimi_saeed]

Contradiction

Dear Miscue,

i am sure the analysis of any movement and tactic will help players and coaches to imrove their next performance,so if we can monitor the matches both statistically and observatory we will reach to the better results which are fruitfull.the football matches have got their specific rules and strategies completly different from paintball tactics:i.e. in football the main aim is reachin to the goal by scoring,attackers have their specific duties,so are deffenders and midfilders,but in paintball all memebrs of the scuad must deffend,attack and support each other and absence of any of the memebers bring a harder burgain on the team.

Please comment.
thank you very much

[latches109]

wow this is old, i am bad at looking at those dates.

Rahimi saeed, that data is held by the US military. There is a private corporation which specializes in such software. Here
hope this helps,
Lattches109

Dear Latches109,

Will you help me to achieve the software or any other material in this case?
thank you very much

[Miscue]

Dear Miscue,

i am sure the analysis of any movement and tactic will help players and coaches to imrove their next performance,so if we can monitor the matches both statistically and observatory we will reach to the better results which are fruitfull.the football matches have got their specific rules and strategies completly different from paintball tactics:i.e. in football the main aim is reachin to the goal by scoring,attackers have their specific duties,so are deffenders and midfilders,but in paintball all memebrs of the scuad must deffend,attack and support each other and absence of any of the memebers bring a harder burgain on the team.

Please comment.
thank you very much

How would it help? What sort of non-trivial information could be gathered from such a study that could be used to improve decision making on and off the field?

Are you sure that an analysis would be helpful because of faith, or because of some reason that would hold up well against thoughtful scrutiny?

You misunderstand why I brought up football. I could have brought up several other things that would have made the same point. It is very difficult to use statistical data to successfully predict things, especially with complex systems.

[Miscue]

Dear Miscue,

i am sure the analysis of any movement and tactic will help players and coaches to imrove their next performance,so if we can monitor the matches both statistically and observatory we will reach to the better results which are fruitfull.the football matches have got their specific rules and strategies completly different from paintball tactics:i.e. in football the main aim is reachin to the goal by scoring,attackers have their specific duties,so are deffenders and midfilders,but in paintball all memebrs of the scuad must deffend,attack and support each other and absence of any of the memebers bring a harder burgain on the team.

Please comment.
thank you very much

How would it help? What sort of non-trivial information could be gathered from such a study that could be used to improve decision making on and off the field? Also... remember that the ultimate goal was to apply this to real combat.

Are you sure that an analysis would be helpful because of faith, or because of some reason that would hold up well against thoughtful scrutiny?

You misunderstand why I brought up football. I could have brought up several other things that would have made the same point. The difficulty of making successful predictions increases drastically as the complexity of a system increases.

Let's say it is possible... could you envision paintball players thinking to themselves: I'm going to move/shoot there... do this or that... because the data collection stuffed in my head suggests it? Extracted ideas on more effective ways to play would have to be fairly simple to be useful. And if it is simple - a complex analysis is unnecessary.

It's just not realistic.

[Rudz]

my thought

i do think the data would be helpful, despite numerous variables, including number of players, and equiptment, there r set circunmstances, such as, there is a goal, and moves need to be made to achieve this goal, i believe if a team is analyzed or analyzes other teams a highly dependable strategy can be made, such as, if i move here, ...the data shows that in this predicament, the opposing team does this..therefore u can be prepared to defen against the move, or make your own move to cripple your oppenenst advance before he or she even makes there move, because u kno what they have done in the past and therefore u can better evaluate the given situation

[Aleis]

A Sadly nessisray thing to add to that system if it is to be applied to Tournament setting would be the Ratio of Player calling them selves out to playing in/ Wiping, Whats the average of times you have to shoot someone before they actual leave hte field. See Ref It's not over shooting, It's Statistics.

[Glickman]

have you thought about implimenting an algorithm for locating players?

[ThePixelGuru]

This actually seems pretty worthwhile to me. Last spring (in PGI I think) I read a pretty good article concerning the odds of getting eliminated in various ways. I might be messing up the numbers a bit, but I seem to remember it being something like 10% of eliminations happen through gunfights, another 10% happen by way of bunkering and run-throughs, and 80% happen through laning opponents or getting a good angle into their bunker and shooting them out - basically any tactic that negates opponents' cover at a distance while keeping you safe is ideal, as it statistically scores the most eliminations and leaves you less vulnerable than most other strategies.

It'd be interesting to just look at a map of a field and see where players where and which direction they were moving/shooting when elimations occurred. To take it to the next level you could see what moves players made that forced that situation or made them decide to take whatever action lead directly to eliminations.

And yeah, it's not like players or infantymen are going to be crunching numbers in the field to figure out where their best odds lie - but you can get a real sense for it. How often do you see a new player break out of a bunker to go for a run through or bunker someone and get lit up the instant they move from behind their cover? How often do you see that happen to a pro? Obviously it's not some magic or voodoo that the pros have that makes them not get shot as often in those situations. There's a real art to timing your moves and picking the right path and actions to take so you do the best you can for your team.

On the flipside, I'm not sure how well paintball works as a model for small squad tactics. The setups might be similar, but the analogy starts to break down when you get players sacrifice themselves. Sure, some brave army man might leap on a grenade to save his squad, but you'll probably never see someone run up and shoot an ememy knowing full well it's a self-sacrifice, going one-for-one with the enemy because you happen to be up 5 on 3 at that moment. Likewise, an infantyman is going to be under a hell of a lot more stress if 5 men out of his 7 man squad gets dropped than a paintballer in the same situation, and therefore do drastically different things. However, that's pretty much the hurdle in all training exercises and tactics studies.

I don't think tourny paintball is an accurate model for small squad tactics because of the aforementioned reasons. You could do police/army training exercises with paintball equipment where the focus _is_ on survivability, not team victory at any and all costs.

Ah well, just my musings on what seems to be an interesting topic. This is pretty old, though - is the project over? Got any results we can see or is it all classified or something? Hope it went well.

Peace.

[AgentSmith]

Hi everyone,
I'm new here but this topic attracts me so much I can't resist chiming in despite the age of the thread. I think that the best case scenario for this type of study would be a 'martial art' for small arms. By that I mean a logically structured, progressively complex course of study that would result in minimizing a person's chances of getting it shot off. I've already gone through this discussion with my Brother-in Law who is serving at the Army's Training and Doctrine Command after he returned from Iraq. When the Musket took over the battlefield from the the longbow, the musket had shorter range, worse accuracy and a slower rate of fire. The longbow lost out because it takes a lifetime to make a bowman but it takes two days to make a musketeer. Now those of us lucky enough to have decades of experience have internalized the tactics that keep us from getting eliminated, but in the case of a paintball school for total newcomers or an army with a raw recruit, trainers are faced with a blank slate that can be very intimidating. The quicker a person can learn ABC the faster they'll get to XYZ.

Many new paintball players are like a hiding cat with it's tail hanging out from under the curtains, they have no idea what they are doing wrong

Paintball or direct armed conflict boils down to:

Hiding behind something while shooting at someone hiding behind something

moving while shooting at someone hiding behind something

Hiding behind something while shooting at someone moving

Moving while shooting at someone moving


It doesn't matter if you're hiding behind an inflatable bunker or a tree, or driving an M1 tank, the same types of misjudgments will get get you hit.

A short simple course to teach hiding, moving and shooting while doing both would benefit paintball and whoever put out the DVD. Like a martial art, advanced techniques can only be discovered when the basics are mastered

I noticed in some of my Bro-in-Law's pics, his troops were holding their M4's like paintball markers. Gun up high, telescopic stock on top the shoulder, elbows in tight, nothing coming around the corner except muzzle and eyeball. While no, paintball isn't exactly like real combat(thank heavens), it certainly is a worthwhile 'testbed' for many things and has already passed a few techniques to real combat that have saved lives.


Rob

[latches109]

[Miscue]

I don't like my wording in that quote. Let's replace it with simply: "It is very difficult to make successful predictions using stats from a complex system."

As far as what you said and what I think about it... "Monkey potato 1776 touchdown." It makes as much sense, using less words.

[latches109]

I don't like my wording in that quote. Let's replace it with simply: "It is very difficult to make successful predictions using stats from a complex system."

"...successful predictions..."

If these models were not successful then there would be no use for statistics. My point was these models are very effective. That is why they are used. Sometimes statistics is not cost effective, because data collection can be expensive.

As far as what you said and what I think about it... "Monkey potato 1776 touchdown." It makes as much sense, using less words.

[Miscue]

[joesmoe10]

Well, I play Halo 2 quite frequently and I couldn't help but noticed that they have something similar. They track all stats in any game including where and when you were killed. I have no idea how they do it but perhaps you could contact them or maybe use Halo 2 instead of paintball, though the fitness data might not be so good...
Follow the link and click "Game Viewer" for the map and the statistics should be self explanatory.
Halo 2 Goodness