Trigger disconnector... why not?

[yurchikcs]

I am a big firearms collector, and I am very fimiliar with the semi-auto trigger groups of many real firearms. This also applies to a few paintguns, but here is my main question:

Why didn't Automags use a disconnector in a real trigger group to eliminate short-stroking?

Some background:

In basic open bolt submachine guns, you usually have only two trigger parts, the trigger and the sear. You pull the trigger, it moves the sear out of the way of the bolt, and it fires until it either runs out of ammunition or you let go of the trigger and the sear catches the bolt again. Its cheap, its simple and it works.

In semi-automatic rifles however, you have a part called the disconnector that litterally disconnects the trigger from the sear so that when the weapon is fired, it pulls the sear and releases the hammer to fire the weapon. after it releases the hammer, the disconnector catches the hammer on it's return and holds it from firing the weapon again. When the trigger is released, the disconnector releases the hammer and allows it to rest on the trigger again when the cycle can be repeated.

The question, expanded:

Now, since the cause of short-stroking is failure to fully cycle the trigger (and thus the sear), why was there not a mechanical system involving a disconnector that would not allow the marker to fire unless the trigger was fully cycled? All you would have to do is figure a way to operate the sear through the disconnector instead of the trigger and you would be set. I will see if I can come up with a diagram to explain what I am talking about to those not fimiliar with semi-auto rifle/subgun trigger groups.

[ZSigErik]

That sounds amazingly interesting, keep me posted...

Also, wouldnt that decrease how much you could shoot per second, having to fully cycle the trigger with the disconnector?

[yurchikcs]

It probably would lower the BPS, but if you had a conventional trigger group you would be able to give it a traditional sand/grind/polish trigger job with trigger stops.

[xatle]

practice in 3 round bursts, then 5 round bursts, then 8 round bursts, after you can do 8 round bursts consistantly you will probably find its pretty easy to fire longer strings without trouble. most people i know can break 5 bps thier first day without any short stroking. if your particularly good you can do 8 bps on a stock classic, mainly because the valve doesnt begin recharging till you release the trigger.
this is the primary reason why the same valve can do 10 bps with an e-frame, the e-frame wont wait for you to release the trigger before allowing the valve to recharge. so ultimatly what we need to see is a new seer design that uses the forward stroke of the bolt to push down on the trigger pin, disconnecting it from the seer, thus allowing the on/off to fully open long before youve finished releasing the trigger.
the biggest drawback to this design that i see is that you would also need a spring to return the trigger pin, adding even more resistance to a trigger that is, by todays standards, already stiff.

[AGD]

We didn't do it because it lengthens the trigger pull. We had such a system on the first Panther prototype.

AGD

[yurchikcs]

xatle: I don't have a shortstroking problem, I learned the trigger pretty quick. I am just thinking on the technical level of why they didn't do it.

AGD: I thought you guys would have experimented with it and had a good reason for not doing it. I figured if I thought of it, AGD must have thought of it, tried it, and rejected it 15 years ago.

[nerobro]

if you want a brutal example of this. Look at thevm-68 trigger group. Though simplified they do the same things in all blowback triggers beucase it needs to catch the hammer at the rearmost point in it's travel. there are two sears.. one on the back of the trigger, one that catches the bolt.

in a spyder, the sear spring, pulls the main sear away from the trigger sear as soon as it realeases the hammer.

in a vm-68, the hammer knocks the sear free so the sear can come up to catch the hammer again.

in both cases the trigger sear can't catch the main sear until the trigger had been released.


As for the mag not having a trigger disconnector, it would be difficult to accurately arrange the trigger disconnector due to the variance in timing of each mag off the assembly line ;-) once the gun fires, it won't fire again. keep in mind the panther 1 and 2 were both blowbacks, and had to have a trigger disconnector setup.

[Cristobal]

Originally posted by nerobro
iin a spyder, the sear spring, pulls the main sear away from the trigger sear as soon as it realeases the hammer.

ICD's Desert Fox uses that system... of course it also doesn't have to worry about closing the on/off with the sear b/c it arranges the blow-forward system differently

[nerobro]

the desert fox is dependant on a crappy reg to allow the bolt to travel back far enough. :-) it's like a mag with a leaking on/off top o-ring. it works............... I"ll just say I'm glad I got my mag instead.