spring

[drx975]

Sure, it would be wider. The space in the rail for the front of the sear would have to be widened. Or, have the top wide and it taper down near the bottom. I think a larger rail space is the better move. AGD is redesigning the rail, that would be the optimal time to do it, but many other people produce rails as well. They can always modify it.

Yeah, good points. "Or, have the top wide and it taper down near the bottom" -- that is EXACTLY what I was thinking (did I mention that in my posts? I cant remember) and I was trying to draw a picture of it in Microsoft Paint but it was really hard to do so I just scratched it and moved on.

Getting AGD to modify the rail to accomodate this sear may take some really hard supporting evidence that it will in fact work in the end.

Anyway, the most important thing here is this spring idea, which I think will work out in the end...we just need more people to read this thread--the "right" people--such as TK himself. Im going to put a link to this thread in a more popular section (like Paintball Talk), essentially moving/copying the thread. We'll see then, whether support behind this future prototype exists and if AGD will give it a try.

[speeddemon]

Well, guys, you are all forgetting something. 15oz is the total force needed to completely pull the trigger. so therefore, using a 5oz spring to reduce the pull to 10oz will still pull the sear out of resting position, into a half pulled position. Basically its the same thing as putting a trigger stop to stop the forward motion of the trigger. Doing that will wear the bolt and sear.

Plus, it would probably make it go into runaway. Adding a spring, is reducing the pull, but it doesn't reduce the kickback force in the same ratio. If it reduced the pull from 15 to say 10, then it would reduce the kickback from 45 to 40, increasing the ratio from 1:3 to 1:4. I would almost guarantee that it would be really easy to sweet spot it if you reduce it by any amount.

Try it if you want, but I doubt it would work well.

Oh, and the kickback effect isn't just the RT valve, its the design of the pin that does it. Since the way the head of it is, with pressure around the pin, and on top, the effective area that is pressing on the sear is .035 of an inch. When you pull the trigger and close the valve, the pressure is gone from around the sear, and there is still pressure on top of the pin. That increases the area with pressure on it. Thats what creates the RT effect. The increased recharge rate of the RT/X valve makes it more pronounced than the classic with the ULT. (Don't know if any of that makes sense, I can't think of how to explain it any better.)

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

spring

I think the spring idea is in theory good, but factors you have touched on are the reasons it wil not work. The wider sear is definitely something I think is possible. It's all about distributing the pressure put on the bolt surface.

[drx975]

You need 3lbs of force to completely fire a stock Mag (for explanatory reasons Im using the stock pull, and not the ULE pull). Anything under that, and the gun does not fire. Knowing that, lets say I get ready to fire and pull on the trigger slightly, but so that the trigger does not move. If you dont believe this possible, go try it...you can pull on the trigger, and still not move it at all.

My point and question to you is what if the spring was made to push that much on the trigger--so much that it wouldnt move the trigger, but it would contribute to the reduced pull weight?

I see what you thought when you said it would move the trigger--and that made sense at first--but if you think about it, you can still pull on the trigger without moving it at all. And this force you exert on the trigger still counts towards that 3lbs required force to completely fire the gun.

Am I wrong?

Note: A 15oz pull has different proportions, I know. A 7oz spring may be too much resistance, due to the fact that its nearly half the weight of the required pull weight. However I think a certain amount of resistance will work, and hey, most people would be more than happy to have their trigger that much lighter no matter how small the difference. It wouldnt be expensive--its merely a spring, and its still effective.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

or

It would be minimal though, it's probably 1 or 2 oz to pull that little bit. If there was a way to make that heavier both on pull and reset then we'd be in business. But I think it's this same little space at the end of the reset that causes it to not reset fully.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

magnet

Now what would happen if a magnet was put in the handle of the trigger frame and a magnet was in the trigger with the opposite polarity so when it got close enough to the trigger frame, it would be pulling harder (maybe 4-5oz) and when the trigger is released, it will be far enough out of the range of the magnet that it will be able to properly reset without any resistance from the magnet pull?

[drx975]

Ok, about the magnet, Pro-Team has a frame called the Medusa frame (which STILL is not out) that incorporates magnets into the frame to allow for a super light 1mm pull.

The one problem: they cant finish this thing.

I have no idea what is going on with them, but I'll give you my story: I asked for the frame for Christmas, my mom calls them to order it, they say its not ready, but will be for Christmas. One week before Christmas, still not ready. Production date pushed back 2 weeks due to "machine shops on break". After several more phone calls and several more delays, I decided to give it up and get an intelliframe (good choice I found out). On our last phone call, they said they would contact me as soon as it was ready.

They never called.

If they can seriously get their act together, it might prove to be an amazing mechanical frame. The potential of a magnetic frame is very high, it is just hard to create due to a lot of problematic areas with the magnets.

[lightning rift]

OK, I just asked about gears on my home web site, and someone directed me back to this thread. After reading through all the posts, I think the easiest way to do this will be with the magnets. Here's my idea: use a combination of gears and the magnet (in the rear of the marker that pulls on the sear) to create a "fliping" magnet. Thus, when the trigger is pulled, the magnet will be aiding in pulling, but when the trigger reaches the firing point, the magnet is physically fliped or turned to aid in pushing the trigger back out.

YOU ARE ALLOWED TO CRITISIZE MY STUPIDIY, BUT NOT MY LACK OF ARTISTIC ABILITY!

[drx975]

Confusing drawing...explain?

[lightning rift]

Oops

Sorry, I was up very early yesterday on a few hours of sleep and then again up very late last night. I shouldn't have attempted something technical then...

I am beginning to come up with an animation that will help explain things, but for the mean time I have hit a mental block. Everything seemed to be working out, and then I decided that perhaps what I was thinging couldn't be done.

Something that might make this much easier stems from electromagnets. By switching the flow of current, the poles are switched, right? Couldn't we wire something into the itelliframe roller switch so that the magnet on the frame and the magnet on the trigger could be either attracting or repelling?

As for my animation, it will have to wait till tomorrow or something... I have a *few* tests in the morning...

[lightning rift]

I will never learn

Crap, tonight is gunna be a repeat of yesterday unless I can get some peace. Which isn't going to happen until I get my thoughts in line.

Got some icecream and thought of something totally different than magnets. How about a 3-way device like on cockers? Make a very small one that places pressure on the trigger when firing, then switches over and puts pressure going out. This might cause runaway, but we could make an outlet or something in the middle. What do you think?

[Yamz]

How about a 3-way device like on cockers? Make a very small one that places pressure on the trigger when firing, then switches over and puts pressure going out. This might cause runaway, but we could make an outlet or something in the middle. What do you think?

That has been done by punisher I believe if I have time I will do a search and post the link to it