Cocker vs. Mag differences?

[ignatz]

I not really concerned with the mechanical differences between mags and cocker cause that's easy. I am curious about to the preceived performance differences; namely that cockers shoot further and are more accurate. I've been playing with a Mag for about 6 years and love it. I just bought a cocker and the difference is night and day. I used the same paint and same barrel on my cocker and on my ULE bodied EMag and I can see why I've heard so many times that cockers shoot farther.

I personally don't think the cocker shoots farther because I understand that once a ball leaves the barrel of the marker with a given escape velocity the distance traveled will be the same given the weight of the paintball is the same. Basic physics, right.

This leads me to beg the question, why do so many people think the cocker shoots further? Could the answer have to do with the quality of the projection conditions? In other words, do you think it could be operating pressure differences that lead people to believe the cocker shoot further? I mean since the Mag runs at a higher operating pressure more air molecules are released out of the barrel with each shot. Could this additional volume of air cause the paintaball to have less stable flight path due to turbulence, thereby being less accurate at a given distance? Could this accuracy question lead to the conclusion that a marker just can't shoot as far as another?

[drx975]

There was a test done with an Angel, a Shocker, and another gun at the same velocity, and neither gun shot farther than the next, past a difference of 4 or 5 feet (which could be the result of tank inconsistency or wind).

I think a lot of us know that virtually all Cocker owners believe their gun shoots farther than a Mag, or at least that it has "great range". I dont understand this "great range" thing; its not possible for a paintball travelling the same speed as another to go any farther (also--in paintball, the ball can be influenced with spin and have no effect) than another paintball. If anyone would take time out to think what they are doing at the chrono, they would know that they are clocking the speed of their paintballs AFTER they leave the barrel, and obviously, the gun.

The only thing we are changing here is the gun the paintball is being fired from, meaning humidity, air pressure, heat, etc, are all the same. Whatever operating pressure it takes to reach the velocity of 280 fps, doesnt matter. Both travel 280fps, both go the same distance.

Its my opinion Cocker owners are imagining their guns real ability...I also think merely because they heard Cockers shoot farther, they believe it and adopt that theory as they watch their gun magically shoot farther than any gun theyve ever shot before..

Yes I have shot a Cocker before..it didnt reach any farther than my gun had during that day.

[BourneKiller]

Was that a warpig test? Do you have a link to the results?

It's not an issue of me believing you, let me tell you, I know that simple physics is what's going on, but there are others who believe differently

At any rate, what's the business about this "cockers shoot w/ a flatter trajectory, therefore they go farther"?

[billmi]

Re: Cocker vs. Mag differences?

Originally posted by ignatz
I mean since the Mag runs at a higher operating pressure more air molecules are released out of the barrel with each shot. Could this additional volume of air cause the paintaball to have less stable flight path due to turbulence, thereby being less accurate at a given distance?

Your thesis is based on this building point, which, I do not think has been credibly established.

There are four interrellated descriptors when talking about the physics of a gas. You refer to three of the of them as if they are directly proportional, when they are not.

Pressure - the amount of force a gas is providing against its surroundings - usually described in terms of force per unit of area (i.e. pounds per square inch.)

There is temperature, which will mainly effect pressure, the othe values being fixed for a given gun.

Volume - the physical space occupied by the gas.

Quantity - how many molecules of the gas are in the sample.

Just because pressure in one situation is higher, does not mean that the volume (determined by the internal measurements of the gun) or the quantity (determined by the relationship of the volume, pressure, pressure, and amount of time that the valves are open) of gas released will be higher.

Moreover, just because the pressure of gas behind the valve is "low pressure" or "high pressure" does not mean that the pressure of gas in the breech propelling the ball is "low pressure" or "high pressure." Restrictions and geometry of the path the gas takes through the valve and bolt will have a dramatic effect on the pressure of the gas propelling the ball. A "low pressure" gun with an open bolt (not speaking of bolt position, but a hollowed out, high flow design) and gas path can actually hit the ball with a higher pressure burst of gas than a "high pressure" gun that has a venturi bolt with small holes restricting the gas flow.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[drx975]

Good point bill.. the operating pressure thing altogether makes a lot more sense to me now.

I think I've learned 90% of what I know in paintball right here in this forum

[jinxed]

The mag vs cocker debate dates back to the old days (90-93) when the early mags had SERIOUS shortstroke, shootdown, and spike problems.

This meant that the velocity would fluxate VERY BADLY.
So many teams were loosing because of mag FPS issues, that many tournament series added special Mag chrono rules (like 1st shot doesnt count if you have a mag, which is CRAZY).

So, when compared next to the Cocker, which used a generic sheridan valve, the Mag would appear to have less range and accuracy.

BUT... newer mags do not have these problems. AGD fixed them along time ago, but the bad reputation persists.

Anyway, if the ball leaves the barrel at 280fps, without a spin, it will land in the same general spot regardless of gun-type. The trick is just getting every shot have minimal variance in FPS. This means accuracy is better, and you can run closer to the limit.. meaning better range.

nick

[shinobidice]

If you said your gun shot farther at a save velocity dont you think more people would buy your product? its sales propoganda anything to make a few more bucks..

[drx975]

Im really unfamiliar with law and everything, but I believe advertising that your gun shoots farther (when its not even physically possible) when it really doesnt, is illegal (false advertisment?). Even if they argued that its the operating pressure or some bs like that, they still need to have tests done before they can just go around saying that.

I dont know though, becuase in a PB2X magazine I saw an ad for an Angel and WDP claimed that their gun, shooting at 20 bps, was the fastest gun out there. This is such a load of crap, not only is the Emag w/ emagnum board the fastest (30 bps), but there were and are plenty of guns that are capable of 20bps.

This is the reason why I dont listen to anything I hear.

[Redkey]

Just because someone says they tested something doesn't mean you should believe them either. There are so many ways to skew test results to say what you want. So, unless you know and understand every detail of the testing and analysis you should view published test results with a skeptical eye.

[FallNAngel]

Originally posted by drx975
(also--in paintball, the ball can be influenced with spin and have no effect)

Perhaps I'm just reading it wrong, but if spin apparently has no effect on a paintball, how do you explain how a flatline barrel works?

[TSalPaintball]

Well put ignatz. Finally someone needed to come out and set people stright, but drx975 spin can effect the flight travel, flatline and z-body that use back spin, all though you do not gain that muc more flat terjectory the distance is greater, but the are not the best thing becuase first they curve up the flaten out the magically shoot back up but loose most of there volocity and bounce of the target.

[jinxed]

Originally posted by drx975
This is such a load of crap, not only is the Emag w/ emagnum board the fastest (30 bps), but there were and are plenty of guns that are capable of 20bps.

Heck, stick a Morlock and siphon on an E-Spyder and you will be shooting 40cps without shootdown...... until the marker itself falls apart.

Since the 80s, I've always viewed paintball magazines as expensive catalogs. Even the reviews are usually promotional fluff.

Nick

[Kingman01]

I think there is a simpler answer about the whole "cockers shoot farther" theory. Cockers shoot with a closed bolt, when the bolt is in the foreward position, the paintball is pushed past the ball detent. If the paint is too small it will roll out of the barrel. This was early on and still is a problem for cocker owners, so to remedy this, cocker users would match the barrel to their paint, and vise versa. Due to the correct barrel to paint match, cocker owners were most likely getting better range. Us cocker users were practicing paint to barrel matching out of necessity, before is was an established method for accuracy. Today, it seems as if we are on a level playing ground.

[cockerman4life]

cockers was the best in the begining with the snipes and still is with the e-orracle get over it mag users

[TSalPaintball]

X MAG!