autococker valve/other valve: time it needs to stay open to fire/changes

[hitech]

When the on/off is open there is nothing sealing the pressure from the underside of the pin. Therefore, there is pressure present at the underside of the pin.

[athomas]

The underside does become pressurized as the pressure inside the dump chamber increases. This causes the pressure exerted on the pin to be reduced as the valve charges. There is a two fold reason why this is. The first is because of the pressure on the top of the pin minus the pressure on the bottom of the pin. The second reason is because as the chamber fills, it acts against the regulator to reduce the air flow. This is how the retro valve limits the front chamber pressure to a lower value than the pressure of the air that is actually coming into the chamber. This lower flow also affects the pressure exerted on the top of the on/off pin.

So, after the initial blast of air on the top of the pin, the pressure exerted is greatly reduced, and thus so is further air flow. On the standard air valve, the effect is more dramatic because the pressure of the air is already lower to start. The ULT exagerates it by having a smaller bottom section. The resultant pressure pushing up on the pin is greater because of the small bottom.


When you are pulling the trigger, the only force is the area of the small section of the pin. This is because the area of the top and the bottom of the large section cancel out leaving only the area of the small section of the pin.

Hopefully this helps. I know the explaination may be lacking in some areas, so feel free to fill in the blanks.

[the electrician]

I don't know crap about the new on/off. and a little about the RT. I know it's a design that I definitely admire. I use a standard left PF mag that has a pnuematic sear control. kinda like punisher's customs only a bit simpler, but still effective.

the whole idea of using low pressure on a mag I don't understand. I don't think there would be any gain in performance, and I think the recharge rate would be slower. smart parts made mag mods that enlarged the dump chamber but I never saw any actual improvement in performance. it would take longer to expel the air onto the ball at the lower psi, and it seems like wasted air. a totally redesigned valve would be needed, the flow at the power tube tip being key.

sorry about not explaining the whole dual power factor thing. you see, one side of the ram has the rod in it, so the actual surface area that the air can act upon is reduced. it is reduced by the amount of the surface area of the rod. 1/8" (.125") rod has a surface area of .0122", so subtract that from the .0767 extension power factor and you get .0644 for the retraction power factor.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

sear

Can't take long, gotta sleep and a little bummed because an idea I had kind of just proved to be unusable, i hate when that happens.

My point of the LP mag was trying to figure out if theoretically two mag on/offs being responsible for the airflow would be enough to shoot a cocker, and being side to side would not force you to push directly against the airflow.

Got the airflow idea now I think, thanks!

[the electrician]

well just for the hell of it,

I finished some air consumption tests on the ram/valve test contraption of mine.
with the regular hammer and springs set-up, I guesstimated that I was using 11.7 cu. in. of air (at atmoshperic pressure) per shot. this test was done by filling the tank and cooling it back down to room temp. with water.take a reading of the pressure in the tank, then shooting 1000 rounds. after that let the tank warm back up to room temp and take another reading of the pressure. then using a spread sheet that calculates the volume of air in a tank or cylinder at a specific pressure (taking into account the rrom temp and the density of the air) I was able to divide the amount of air used by the number of shots fired and came up with the average of 11.7 per shot

now the ram/valve design seemed to use 12.4 cu in of air per shot. so about .7 more cu in of air than before. not too bad. it just about exactly coincides with the volume of the valve ram design.

still fairly crude, but actually pretty damn close amazingly enough. about 90 less shots per tank. I was hoping it would be better, not worse, but that's the way it goes. a single solenoid open bolt design would probably be pretty damn efficient.

on a side note, a bps test showed that it had no problems doing 17 bps, in full auto,a right feed with a halo. pretty damn fast. no noticeable drop-off in velocity.

also, I was able to get the valve to open at 4 msec of dwell time, but only able to get 240 fps out of it. increased pressure input gets it up to speed, but uses even more air. still, quite amazing to shoot a ball that fast with only 4 msec of valve dwell.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

wow

OK, it a nutshell: WOW! Impressive work Electrician.

Now this is your electronic, sear-to-valve project right? When it comes down to it what do you think would be all the benefits of this setup over and ebladed cocker and the negatives?

BTW: I paintballed today and got to shoot an actual EBlade for the first time. Not bad at all.... Not super-walkable but pretty sweet.

[the electrician]

this info is from my electro cocker, which is original a direct solenoid actuated sear type, then I converted it by removing the sear, hammer and springs, and adding double acting rams to both sides of the valve. the rams are actually used as single acting, but have no spings in them.an extra MAC 4-way was added to control the rams which control the valve dwell. my gun uses a morlock circuit board to control the timing.

the benefits over using the regular sear/hammer and spring set up are lower recoil,(basically nothing but the recoil of the shot) lower recocking forces due to the separation bolt action and valve action. this can lead to higher bps without higher cocking force. no hammer bounce. less current used.

but after the tests, I have come to the conclusion that without further refinement, the ends do not justify the means. as far as designing a a gun based on this design, it would be too complicated for the benefits. it was mainly a way to obtain information on valve characteristics. it would need to be refined to be worthwhile for an actual gun design. So back to the drawing board for this one.

the E-blade are a blast to shoot. if set-up properly, it can mean a great shooting cocker with lower maintenance. personally I don't like the idea of using the eye to keep from chopping paint, then cranking up the cocking psi. it's too much recoil for me. and the trigger is too soft for my liking. but they are a blast to shoot.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

solenoid

That's too bad electrician, but keep working on stuff, I'm sure one will stick. It's tough advancing something that is already advanced.

Two questions:

1.) For the sake of things, could you elaborate on your double-ram idea to activate the valve? I was actually thinking something similar and I'd be curious to hear the details. I might be able to contribute ideas to it. And definitely elaborate on what makes it too complicated. I think I might have something to contribute but need to hear more to be sure. A picture or such would be killer.

2.) Where in the world did you get a solenoid that small to fit in there? I have been actually looking at setting a simple slide switch on, no screen, no BPS cap, maybe no eye, E-frame up on my mag that will make hyperframes look like a joke and actually be inserted into an intelliframe. But that means I need a 9v, board, and solenoid to fit in the triggerframe. But I can't find a good priced, compact solenoid anywhere. All I need it to do is push one way, I plan on letting the retro effect return it. Any thoughts on this or links to where I can get the parts? And how complicated would it be to construct a board that has simple on/off function? It would actually be TWO switches (I'll elaborate later on this) and here is the order it would go:

1.) Switch one activated
2.) Solenoid used to push sear to fire
3.) As sear pushed, switch two activated
4.) Trigger can not fire again until switch two is turned off.
5.) Sear pushed, solenoid shuts off and lets sear reset by retro effect.
6.) Switch two is released when sear fully resets, allowing switch one to be used to fire again.

Thoughts? If a basic board can be used, it could be a VERY affordable E-frame for mags, and the Lvl 10 and a fast hopper would reduce most chopping. A eye would be nice, and if only a Morlock board would do, then that could be used. Do you think all the components could fit in a trigger frame and if so, would the morlock be able to do the dual switch operation?

[the electrician]

lot's of things end up that way. as long as something is learned, it's not a waste.

basically one ram opens the valve, and the other closes it. they are both controlled by the same solenoid valve.the closing ram is normally open, in other words it has air in it when the gun is at rest. when the trigger is pulled, the air is released from it and air now flows to the opening ram. when the time expires, air is then directed back to the closing ram, and the air in the opening ram is exhausted. then noirmal cocker operation of the recock solenoid valve occurs. for the test model, all the parts are separate, but if it was to be made into a gun, it would all be integrated into one piece to be controlled by the pilot valve.

what solenoid are you talking about?

the morlock board can control just about any electro gun you can dream up. you wouldn't need two switches.

the thing about using a solenoid directly to control the sear in an automag, like the e-mag does, is that it needs a ton of juice and or voltage to generate the force at the proper stroke. I've resorted to using a ram in the grip. right now it's controlled by a micro mechanical 3-way behind the trigger, but an electro version can be made.
I had it electro at one time with a simple homemade circuit board like you said, but the morlock gives you much better control.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

valve

OK, here is what I was thinking...

Have two solenoids, or two electronic rams hooked to one solenoid. 2 to 1 would be fine probably. They need to push inward at the same time and outward at the same time. The valve would be a different valve than the current one, or a way of connecting the main body of the valve to the back ram. So by having the valve pin pulled by the front one, the valve body pulled back by the other, and this would allow a fast rate.

Just an idea, haven't fiddled too much with it.

In regards to the mag idea, with the pull now being 15 oz and the solenoid only having to push one way (this would be for retrovalved mags only) it shouldn't be too hard on the solenoid.

The solenoids you use, where do you get them at an affordable price? I am looking to get one myself.

Thats cool, I think you had my idea first I think the idea I'm having is that by taking advantage of the retro effect to reset the sear, a more simplistic board can be used as it would need to push 15 oz for the stroke of a mag and that's it. The second switch would be already there as intelliframes have them setup exactly as I would. The idea of the second switch is to not need timing to know when to fire again. So the only trick is having the solenoid fire with just enough force to fire but not overdo it. I was hoping a simple board would be possible (like, $25-50 in parts) to be used with a solenoid and one way ram to fire so it could be an inexpensive dropin kit for intelliframes that is an alternative to eframes.

I don't know, still fiddling, but your input on this idea is appreciated.

[the electrician]

that is an interesting idea. opposing forces could in affect cancel each others recoil right out of the picture.(I'm a stickler for recoil, hate the stuff). you might have something there.

that's true the new mag part do make for an easier pull, I would try to set-up a mag with these parts and find out some actual force measurements. this way you could use this info to pick out a solenoid. I use www.solenoidcity.com to find solenoids. they have an excellent selection and you can order them with a specific wire ga to ba wound with, thus picking a resistance to use. this makes it more custom fit to your application and the price is right. that's the company AGD uses anyway.

A simple circuit board could be designed for about $8 easliy, it would be crude but effective. I made a simple pulsed relay circuit that worked, but a timer circuit is even better.

nothing to to marlet, but inexpensive for personal use.

[the electrician]

Yikes!! preview post! always!!

nothoing to market, but inexpensive for personal use is what I meant to type.

sorry.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

idea

Thanks for the acknowledgement, the more I think about it now that E-volution (E-markers, get it? ) is taking place, having a valve like this instead of the one used in mechanical mags is a definite possibility and something that wouldn't have really been looked at before this. The recoil issue was DEFINITELY something I was thinking of with this, identical force in each direction should cancel it out. Theoretically (god I hate that term sometimes). Recoil does suck and having the valve push equally from both sides would take that right out of the equation.

Thanks for the solenoid link. The company AGD uses is exactly what I was looking for, how in the world did you find that out? You wouldn't happen to know the exact stats for the solenoids used in the Worrblades, in Emags, in Timmys, and more importantly what forces and dwells need to be set on them? EDIT: Oh yeah, there are a wide variety of types of noids, which is the kind AGD uses for mags? Open frame, latching...? I think I figured it out and the best Wattage to use and how to acheive that would be great to know. But the noid I was just looking at wasn't too pricey at all, it's just more about getting a board and noid set up to use it I guess.

And I would absolutely love to talk sometime about how possibly I could build a cheap board like the one you mentioned. As you can probably tell, I have a mind for making things work, but have no experience in electronics and pneumatics which is a hindrance. I am learning though.
Something that would let the noid cycle at up to 30 times a second reliably is exactly what is needed. As mentioned, one way is what I am thinking would be optimal. Pushes the sear to the point of firing, then flips to off and doesn't provide any resistance so it lets the sear reset itself. I still like the idea of the switch solely because it prevents you from firing again without the sear fully reset. Or would there be a better way of doing that? Whats the best way to avoid bolt chip, that was what I was thinking of using the second switch to avoid. It would have to fully reset to fire again. I might be wrong in thinking thats needed though, it might be making sure the sear doesn't reset before the bolt has fully returned. I guess programming the dwell right would be the answer for either of those.

Alright, I'm going to do some looking at that site, see if I can get it to make sense, but any info you can provide regarding whats needed to set up that small, affordable board you mentioned would be great. Remember, I want to fit a 9V, board, the wires, and maybe even the solenoid. No idea how, the Intelliframe doesn't seem to give too much space.

[the electrician]

not enough space? what?


that's a '99 benchmark single slide trigger frame with a trigger, sear, sear solenoid, battery, board, trigger switch, firing capacitor, and on/off switch, all in a frame that takes regular old grips. if I can do it, so can you!

the intelliframe is a very nice frame. I use one of the triggers in my mag mod. it can be done.

http://www.solenoidcity.com/solenoid/tubular/s-15-75p1.htm

that is the e-mag solenoid. it's wound with 26 awg wire.but you might be able to use a smaller solenoid, or one with more resistance if you lower the forces needed to pull the sear down. it would mean less current needed, possibly run it off a 9 volt.

you need to be turned on to a valuable source of info. Have Blue's Rat's Nest.http://airsoldier.com/~haveblue/tech/

it is a great resource. mostly my mods are done using my own info though, since it's mostly new stuff.

[the electrician]

hey amke sure to look at the technical info, on that solenoid site. it can teach you about solenoids a bit.

also www.electromechanisms.com