c02 The final frontier

[z-zero]

With the recent improvements to the automag, there still seems to be one lingering weakness in the overall performance of the automag, freezing. Now that the trigger is lighter and you don't have to worry about chopping, you can shoot faster easier. For those of us who use c02 that means in cold weather even with the stablizer and anti-siphon and expansion chambers freezing is still a possibility. It also cost as much money to run c02 (correctly) as HPA. So why don't all mag users have HPA? Some don't have access to it and others don't like getting less shots with a tank of HPA the same size as there c02. Others just don't want to shell out money for a tank. I say all this to try and come up with something cheap that would make mags preform as well on c02 out of the box as HPA. I think maybe some kind of heating element that will warm the c02 before it gets to the regulator could solve this problem. Almost a sorta heated mesh in the airline or special fitting that warms the co2 as it passes by. Kinda like a catlytic converter in an exhaust system. Thoughts or suggestions?

z-zero

[FooTemps]

warm co2 chamber, the effects of freezing would eventually negate that though.

[z-zero]

I was actually thinking along the lines of a battery powered heating coil with a sensor that could adjust automatically to a set/desired temperature. A small board powered by a nimh, or lithium battery, or maybe just run from a warp or hopper. It would be kinda weird as a bolt on part though. Thanks for the reply.

z-zero

[FooTemps]

Originally posted by z-zero
I was actually thinking along the lines of a battery powered heating coil with a sensor that could adjust automatically to a set/desired temperature. A small board powered by a nimh, or lithium battery, or maybe just run from a warp or hopper. It would be kinda weird as a bolt on part though. Thanks for the reply.

z-zero

way too much weight.

[z-zero]

As compared to what? Your expansion chamber/stabilizer/anti-siphon? Or perhaps your gas through and remote setup? The board and battery combo would only weigh maybe as much if not less that any one thing mentioned above, minus the anti-siphon tube. I don't think weight would be an issue. The coil would be small enough to run inside you micro/macro line, or perhaps something half the size of a x-chamber including the board.



z-zero

[athomas]

The heat energy required to keep the CO2 warm when running through a valve would be a very large value. This would make the battery requirement large as well, if it were to have enough energy for a large number of shots. The high current requirements due to the rate at which the CO2 would have to be heated would also dictate a special high capacity cell. The cost would be prohibitive as well as the size.

[z-zero]

Well when you put it that way:o

Would it need to be bigger then an emag battery? I know in RC racing they are up to like 3600 mah in a c sized cell at a realtively low voltage between 1-2 volts. I'm wondering if the battery technology is/will improve enough for this to be possible. How much current would something like this require?

z-zero

[athomas]

You would have to figure out the actual energy required to bring the valve and CO2 back up to temperature. Electricity converted to heat is fairly efficient and some heat would be supplied by the ambient air temp. So, if you supplies approximately the same amount of joules of energy to the heater as was lost by the CO2, then the CO2 would be brought back up to temp. Find the value of energy lost and you are good to go. I'm sure someone here knows it. I haven't got time to figure it out myself, right now.

[TSalPaintball]

It would be cheeper just to buy HPA, wouldn it?

[GoatBoy]

This has "macroline explosion" written all over it.


I've actually pondered (and tried) something like this a long time ago. The local sporting goods store had this chemical hand warmer stuff that was really weird. You'd boil it in water, and it would be liquid. When you wanted to use, you snapped this metal disc in the liquid that would start a reaction, and the liquid would release heat and harden at the same time. It'd be warm for a while, then you would throw the thing into boiling water and reuse it. I just ran into the stuff a few weeks ago while cleaning out some old boxes of crap.

Unfortunately, it didn't generate enough heat, plus I couldn't wrap it around the chamber correctly.


The other thing I wanted to try was another less sophisticated heating device... I remember a long time ago you could get pocket warmers that burned lil fuel logs or something internally. I cannot for the life of me find them anymore though. You would have PLENTY of heat from one of those things; in fact, it might be too much heat. Course there are other dangers, like breaking the thing open mid-game and burning the crap out of yourself, or getting too much liquid + too much heat (resulting in a 'kaboom'). Pretty lo-tech, huh?


In the end, I highly recommend HPA. Thanks for playing.

[spydervenom]

what happens when all that stuff can't stay consistent and the co2 is inconsistent?

[robertjuric]

Hey what about something having to do with like heat transfer? Like an expansion chamber that would be thin enough so that the heat from your hand would be able to heat it up, and therefor the gas inside.

2 problems though, 1 is pressure, for it to be that thing you would need a really low pressure, so that pretty much kills the idea, the other thing would be if it was to cold outside, or you were wearing gloves you'd get opposite the desired affect and colder gas.

[JonDaAzn]

if you had a really thin expansion chamber, you might freeze your hand onto it, or it could expolde, what would be a possible solution is some sort of vaporizer, like a fuel injector from a car

[sbpyro]

Not saying this is for every paintball marker out there. But I found this a very interesting article from Doc Nickel
bout consistent CO2 use in the winter

http://www.docsmachine.com/tech/liquid.html

[Person]

When you over expand co2 the natural energy is lost....when its all expanded, theres no pressure, co2 is liquid when its under pressure not just when its cold, if co2 is all expanded, theres no more pressure.

Mags will never work properly on co2, unless they just freeze proof the marker.