Magnetic Flux and Coils (HES Bounce Related)

[SlartyBartFast]

Re: Well maybe not tin...

Originally posted by Bad_Knees
Well just a figure of speech.

Don't feel too bad. While it's true that tin is non-magnetic, those that think tin cans aren't magnetic are wrong.

The only thing tin about a tin can is the plating. The cans are steel.

[billmi]

Steel will often become a temporary magnet when exposed to a magnetic field, extending the field, rather than shielding against it. Shielding from RFI is not at all the same as shielding from a magnetic field. I'm not sure that's even possible without generating an opposing magnetic field, and one field fluctuating will cause the other to fluctuate, so you'll still have a fluctuating field over the HES.

[Bad_Knees]

Grounded?

I can't remember but I think the cans are grounded, so doesn't that negate the field from growing??

BK

[athomas]

The metal shielding will become somewhat magnetized over time, but the magnetism will never be as strong as the source that it is attracting.

[nerobro]

Bad_knees: You had a good idea. But RF shielding does not block static magnetic fields. The difference is like that of ac versus dc.

Mr Mills: I was thinking that a strategicly placed magnet would create a strong magnetic field, making the changes from the solinoid smaller. Hopefully small enough not to go in and out of the hysterisis of the HES sensor. The trigger magnet would need to be set closer to the HES sensor becuase of the counteracting field.

Just to use numbers pulled out of my butt. Say the HES needs 1 gauss to make it trip. When the solinoid fires the magnetic field it sends up there is enough to make the hes see only .7 gauss. if we put a seccond magnet behind the HES it would take 2 gauss to trip the sensor. And IIRC, magnetic fields are logs, so 2 gauss would be some many times stronger than 1 gauss. the .3 gauss influence of the solinoid would then no longer be enough to go outside the hysterisis of the HES. So the idea isn't to make the solinoids influence go away, just to make the other magnetic fields strong enough that the solinoids influence is to tiny to matter.

I think. :-) I'm pulling numbers out of my butt at this point. who here knows some real numbers?

[Bad_Knees]

Thought...

Currently I have been working with the EE's here at work on one of my companie's products to gain certification. We are battling a noise issue inside of the product as well. So part of the solution was to seperate the power and signal lines and shielding them as well to eliminate those out of the equation. I don't have my emag in front of me to determine this or even try to figure out if shielding the wires would work? Any thoughts on this?

BK

[Southpaw]

Re: Re: I agree with athomas..

Originally posted by billmi


Tin is non-magnetic and won't distort the field.

don't people use mylar to shield for emf and mylar is plastic and aluminum right? Aluminum is not magnetic or can not be magnetized

[cgrieves]

In response to an earlier post, reversing the HE sensor and trigger magnet solved the full-auto problem on my X-Mag, which would imply that the HES was receiving interference from the solenoid. However, at the time I was using software v2.4 which did not, to my knowledge, include shot buffering. So why the HE was being triggered during the supposed "ignore" period I cannot say. And the full-auto effect continued even with the marker turned down to 10bps.

[billmi]

Re: Grounded?

Originally posted by Bad_Knees
I can't remember but I think the cans are grounded, so doesn't that negate the field from growing??

BK

That could help for radio shielding, not for magnetic shielding.

[Southpaw]

My understanding of the Hes is that it operates somewhat like a relay and that if you bend the Hes the opposite way and switch the magnet too then it will pull instead of push the Hes. With the Hes reversed the solenoid would not add to the field it would make it harder to set off just an idea if you have the problem you might try it before you pull out the soldering iron? Tell us if it works!

[cphilip]

Originally posted by cgrieves
In response to an earlier post, reversing the HE sensor and trigger magnet solved the full-auto problem on my X-Mag, which would imply that the HES was receiving interference from the solenoid. However, at the time I was using software v2.4 which did not, to my knowledge, include shot buffering. So why the HE was being triggered during the supposed "ignore" period I cannot say. And the full-auto effect continued even with the marker turned down to 10bps.

At this point I fully believe that the explanation is that the software only exagerated a problem. And that certain HES's were suspeptable to interferance anyway. Not as many as now are with the Buffering period but still. A certain percentage of them

We all along have suspected the HES as being an issue. They not all just precisely the same. They have a range of sensitivity. And we blamed any of this earlier "squirrely" activity on the HES. And in fact I think it was a combination of this Magnetic field effect and an HES that was on the "Sensitive" side of normal range all along. And even those could have been fixed with switching wires. We seeing more and more Pre-3.2 software markers coming out of the wood work that are being fixed by reversing polarity. So I suspect that this alway existed. In some limited amount. It was not until the new software demonstrated it in a majority (or at least large enough to notice) that Tom searched for an answer. I mean if you do not have a problem in MOST of the markers you just do not have a problem!

[cphilip]

Why are we searching for other answers when we have the best one already in hand?

I mean why not just figure out the polarity we want and determine it during install and move on?

[cgrieves]

Yeah, not a problem Cphil, not trying to stir anything up

Just want to make sure AGD has all the data available- and that the shot buffering is not the cause of the problem, just a catalyst.

[Southpaw]

I am just throwing out an idea for the people with out sodering skills. It seems more simple so i thought I would throw it out to all the people with this problem. Not to diss anyone or their fix that is already proven to work. I just like to keep things as simple as I can. Just an Idea.

[hardr0ck68]

i say forget the HES, and follow the crowd...go for an optical switch. Still no mechanical parts to wear out, and no issues as fas as i know with Noid interfereance....plus the masses thisn they are "hot" because of the e-blade and new angels. Then AGD guns will be able to use the "hot" aftermarked triggers also. yeah my .02