rof and accuracy

[clockworkmiller]

smoken.

thats exactly what it means. In rapid fire, you'll have a tighter grouping at a greater distance

[Vegeta]

Air resistance is less behind a moving object. In racing, a driver stays behind the car in front of him up to about 4 feet behind his bumper until swinging out to pass. The wind resistance is less, giving the car more speed while in this draft.If you watch racign closely, you can see a car pull up behind the lead car easily, but when hte car swings out to pass, it hits a wall or air and slows down a bit. That is why most passing in racing doesn not matter on speed, but more on overbraking/underbraking your opponent.

Same thing applies in paintball. What is not good, is if while you are firing a string, say 10 balls, and are runnign or moving your gun. If this happens, each ball is lsightly behind the ohter, but also off set from each, so say each ball is 10 inches behind hte ball before it, but also 10 inches to the right, so the balls hit in a row (> > > > > > > >) Accuracy can be greatly affected if hte balls are too lcose, and the tail wind off the 1st ball hits the second ball, and 2nd hits 3rd and so on. Yes, the balls will group tighter is they are inline, but if they are offset like this, the corner of the draft produced could possibly throw off the ball next to it.

[AGD]

Vegeta,

Think about it, at 300 ft per second a ball will travel 30 ft in 1/10th of a second right? That means firing at 10 bps puts the balls 30 ft. apart.

AGD

[clockworkmiller]

The bad part about that Tom, is that most snap shooting contests take place much closer than 30ft. For front players, its an advantage to turn your velocity down, in order to reproduce the affect above. On the other hand, this whole concept of wakes, and tighter shooting patterns is just a theory. And we all know that theories are just their to be tested. So in two weeks, when no body cares about this discussion, and has in all proabability moved on to bigger and better things, I'll be takeing my truck, a vice, a chronograph, and my marker out into the desert to test this wonderful theory of ours.

[Vegeta]

ok that was enlightening, never saw it that way. What we really need to know, and I know AGD has this info vecuase I have heard you all talk abotu the expensive cameras u bought to photograph the PB leavign the barrel.. what need to knwo if how fast the air behind the paintball returns to normal wake. I would say, based on what Tom just stated, pretty fast. I know you all have see "The Matrix". What I am talking about are those little ripples behind the bullets. Notice my attached pic. It would be good if we knew how far that "tail" went.... until it disipated. If the balls really are 30 feet apart, I doubt those trails would be 30 feet.

[PBpunk]

its called bernuolie's principal (bad spelling?) moving air produces less pressure the stationary air. the faster its moving the less pressure it makes. its how airplanes fly but thats a different story. anyway here is my theory. and this would only work with a gun in a vise and a good paint/barrel match. it has been said before but i just wanted to say the concept has been researched in area's other then paintball (like flight or racing). as the ball travels through the air it leaves a "tail" like in the diagram except the tail is more turbulent so the moving air behind it leaves a low pressure "tunnel" for the next ball to go thru like in the jet ski illustration and if it starts to move out of the tunnel it hits the high pressure still air and moves back into the tunnel. of course this depends on how long the "tail" is and the wind and 100's of other factors so i would say its possible but it doesnt happen often if ever but if you could take advantage of it it might be an improvement

[Vegeta]

Yes, but as Tom said, the balls are 30 feet apart at 10bps. not always do u fire that quickly. HTe tails are definately not that long.

[PBpunk]

maybe they are 30ft apart but think about the tails as not something that is following he ball but more like the wake of the ball (the jet ski illustration). then think of how long it would take for the wake to close up. the balls are only a tenth of a second behind the next one. would the air stop moving in a tenth of a second? i dont know. just a thought.

[ButtersAutoMag]

Hmmmm

Well from my personal experience as a mag owner, and a person whos has shot a regular mag and one with a hyper frame, it does affect it. With the hyper frame i used i think 5 round burst and it shot fast, but it only like grouped the shots. I hit like a bunker but I hit it like 4 feet from the center, with my mag I got a double trigger benchmark and hit it an average bout 1 foot from the center.

[clockworkmiller]

Well, here's the trick.

It does work, but only if you are constantly shooting in the same direction. In other words, it would only work if the balls were intending on following the same path. And even if the first ball does swing wildely inaccurate, say on a dimple, then it still lowers turbulence directly in front of the barrel, which may give you an extra foot in range overall.

[CHK6]

Accuracy versus precision

Minimag4me,

I haven't read any of the reply posts, except the one with the picture. The picture is TOTALLY wrong and I say that with much conviction. Basic fluid mechanics easily shows that a sphere traveling through the air creates turbulent wakes in it's path and not smooth latent layers the picture shows. In fact it creates a mini swirl behind itself and pressure distortion around the ball occurs.

As for ROF and accurracy I haven't read any coralation between the two. However ROF might and can have an affect precision. Not to confuse precision and accuracy. If I was you I'd look up the differences between the two to fully understand what I'm saying.

In my theory {basically the mind's eye} rapid fire is like NASCAR drafting. The subsequent trailing balls meets less resistence to air than the leading ball. This is the basics behind drafting in NASCAR. And it has been shown in theory and in practice to be true.

By creating a path for subsequent balls to travel through the tightness of the pattern on impact will get smaller. This is called precision.

[Vegeta]

I stated that:

In racing, a driver stays behind the car in front of him up to about 4 feet behind his bumper until swinging out to pass. The wind resistance is less, giving the car more speed while in this draft.If you watch racign closely, you can see a car pull up behind the lead car easily, but when hte car swings out to pass, it hits a wall or air and slows down a bit. That is why most passing in racing doesn not matter on speed, but more on overbraking/underbraking your opponent.

I also tried to get he whole swile thing going, and brought up "The Matrix" and bullet time, how hte bullets make swiling bubbles in the air. I just couldn't find a way to show that in a pic.

[CHK6]

Cool, we are on the same wave length....

I posted first as not to be biased to what others have posted before me and then went through the posts afterwards. It's cool that I'm not way off base with others.

The length of the tail the ball creates I don't believe matters as much as the wake/air-path it leaves behind. I wonder how long that wake lasts? If it's 10 bps then in the path the balls take only 1/10 of a second passes before the next ball travels through the same point in space. Being that the space is fluiditic, there will be a time of distortion following the point in space.

Got math?

[athomas]

It is theoretical that in ideal conditions, turbulance can be present and last for a period long enough to disrupt a paintball following another paintball in flight. It follows the same concept of airplanes and turbulance. That is why planes are directed to stay certain time/distances away from other flight paths when attempting to take-off. If a plane takes off too soon following another, it could get caught in the low pressure turbulance left by the previous plane. It has cause planes to literally fall out of the sky during take-off due to the lack of required pressure for the engines and wings to push against to gain speed and lift. For a 2nd paintball to follow the same path as a previous paintball, it is theoretically possible that this lack of pressure could act like a tunnel and provide a path for the 2nd paintball too follow.

I don't know how you would test this. Maybe we could get someone to build a series of highspeed cameras and fire some shots past them under controlled conditions and possibly some smoke particles for viewing the turbulence and pressure void.

[PBpunk]

a good way to test it may be in a wind tunnel maybe you could put a ball in a wind tunnel then use those little smoke jet things that you see in car adds ands stuff. you may be able to tell what the trails look like and how long they last and stuff. i dont know who would have access to a wind tunnel. i bet AGD could. maybe talk to Boeing or NASA or Lockheed Martin or something. if nothing else it would be interesting.