Come! Show Me Why I Am Wrong

[Z-man]

As some of you guessed, one of my pet peeves has been the seemingly groundless reasons that rapid-fire is not something you should do on your Automag.

I have heard it all; from the claim that it's a "malfunction of the valve" to claiming it's the short road to snapping the power tube. 3 years, 3 markers and now my own website later (BWAHAHA!) I am still not seeing it.

I would expect to run into the best minds of AO here to either explain why I am incorrect (or correct) in my logic. Have at it! My masterpiece! The pages that will bring closure to years of ambiguity!

http://www.zakvetter.com/Pages/Paintball/Automags/Rapid_Fire/how-to-rapidfire.html

[Steelrat]

Rapidfire is the work of the devil! Repent!

[Z-man]

NO ONE EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!!!!!

[ZAust]

meh, all the cool kids dont need rapidfire to have a good time.

[AGD]

There is a good reason. When you bounce the sear on the RT valve the bolt rides the sear back to the home position. When the bolt comes all the way back, it bounces off the bumper and comes forward. If it was riding the sear, the sear has now moved up and catches the bolt on the rebound which acts just like a small hammer.

This pounding will eat up your sear and your bolt. Under normal pulls the bounce happens before the sear comes back up. This is also the reason we use a softer bumper on the RT valve.

See, there are intelligent reasons for everything we tell you.

AGD

[Z-man]

Hooray! Thank you Tom. I am glad to FINALLY hear a logical reason for this! So it's more those 2 things:

-The sear sliding along the bolt all the way back (thus rubbing away a larger part of it)

-And the bolt getting banged by the rebound of the "bounce"

Just out of curiosity then, what is happening in my video when the rapid-fire is slower? Is my finger pressure softening the bounce?

Also, does the same kind of thing happen when you are firing an E-Mag series marker at high speeds? I guess what I am asking is, is it the speed that is damaging to the bold and sear or is it that when you hold the sear with your finger you force the sear to wear against the bolt and cause that little hammering?

Doesn't that also happen when you fire the marker normally? When I pull the trigger it cycles so fast that I cannot remove my finger from the trigger fast enough to take the pressure off the sear before the bolt returns. Doesn't that mean the sear is being pushed against the bolt just like in rapid-fire?

In addition doesn't the bolt always bounce off the bumper and smack the sear tip?

Thanks for the help.

[my2crazyeyes]

re:

Please don't be to harsh on me, I'm not sure about this.

"Doesn't that mean the sear is being pushed against the bolt just like in rapid-fire? "

I think the difference is that when you are rapid firing the sear isn't fully catching the bolt, it is just catching it on the very point (at least some of the time) since the sear doesn't have enough time to return fully. The bolt does "hammer" the sear under normal firing, but there is more surface area to catch the bolt since the sear is fully in position before the bolt starts to come forward again.

at least that's what happened to my sear (I think) maybe my spring was bad though I dunno.

Just a thought,

-Chris

[athomas]

You can rapid fire a mag. The problem arizes when you get the mag to runaway due to bounce.

During normal firng of a mag, the bolt returns and is stantionary before the sear is released to hold the bolt and recharge the chamber. There is no wear and tear.

When the trigger is held so that it continually actuates the gun due to the bounce, the sear is held just under the bolt so that they rub while the bolt goes forward and back. The sear is then pushed up to just barely catch the bolt and allow the chamber to recharge. The pressure held by your finger prevents any further upward movement by the sear. The continuing pressure held on the trigger results in another trigger pull once the retro on/off pressure is reduced and the firing process is repeated. Its this process that causes wear on the mag bolt and sear.

[Z-man]

Originally posted by my2crazyeyes
Please don't be to harsh on me, I'm not sure about this.

I HATE YOU I HATE YOU DIEIDIEIEDED!!! :)

Originally posted by my2crazyeyes
The bolt does "hammer" the sear under normal firing, but there is more surface area to catch the bolt since the sear is fully in position before the bolt starts to come forward again.

That is a very interesting point. I do think that could be a contributing factor in the wear. I still am not sure though how what Tom said above and what you have said here is true if I can do this maneuver (it's a 12MB QuickTime video)

It seems to me that if the speed of the rapid-fire can be varied in speed to that degree, something else must be going on here.

Originally posted by athomas
You can rapid fire a mag. The problem arizes when you get the mag to runaway due to bounce....

Did you read my 4 pages on rapid-fire that I posted the link to in my first thread? I address just about everything you said there.

(Click the "how to rapid-fire" link on the page)

http://www.zakvetter.com/Pages/Paintball/Automags/automags_main.htmll

[my2crazyeyes]

I think the difference is when agd is firing at high rates they are making full trigger pulls. When you are holding the trigger in a spot and letting the sear rod (or what ever it is called) bounce off the trigger you aren't allowing the sear to compleate its full movement. It propably doesn't hurt to do it every now and again, but long strings of it probably isn't very good. Another thing you might want to think about is the heat generated from the bolt traveling on the powertube. The heat would wear away the oil on the tube, and cause wear on both the bolt and the tube. This probably doesn't do too much damage, but I suppose it could wear away enough to comprimise the strength of the tube.

-Chris

[Z-man]

Originally posted by my2crazyeyes
I think the difference is when agd is firing at high rates they are making full trigger pulls.

What do you mean AGD?

Originally posted by my2crazyeyes
Another thing you might want to think about is the heat generated from the bolt traveling on the powertube. The heat would wear away the oil on the tube, and cause wear on both the bolt and the tube.

Each time you fire the marker you expell a respectable volume of cool air. Whatever heat is generated by friction from the moving parts is negated and overwhelmed by the cool air the blows through the valve.

When the valve is fired quickly, it cools down from the cool expanded air. The faster you fire, the quicker the valve cools (untill its the same temp as the air passing through it)

[Korrosion]

Does this mean that bad things happen when you use hybrid mode and use the sweet spot where the electronics pick up the trigger pull but the mechanics kick the trigger back?

Originally posted by AGD
There is a good reason. When you bounce the sear on the RT valve the bolt rides the sear back to the home position. When the bolt comes all the way back, it bounces off the bumper and comes forward. If it was riding the sear, the sear has now moved up and catches the bolt on the rebound which acts just like a small hammer.

This pounding will eat up your sear and your bolt. Under normal pulls the bounce happens before the sear comes back up. This is also the reason we use a softer bumper on the RT valve.

See, there are intelligent reasons for everything we tell you.

AGD

[athomas]

When you use hybrid mode, the solenoid provides a complete trigger pull for you. The solenoid then holds the sear out of the way until the bolt is completely returned. You can't ride the sear using hybrid mode.

[phyregod]

Hey, This'll Blow Your Mind

Remove your trigger frame, get shorter screws and put your mag back together, sear and all, save for the trigger frame. Use the bottom of the sear as a trigger and see what happens when you fully pull the sear out of the way of the bolt. I had a classic mag that would shoot faster than anything I've ever seen or heared when you did that. Never put did balls in it though... Afraid that thirty chopped balls would be bad for the bolt and breech. It'll make you cackle with insane glee.

P.S. I would like everyone to know that the above rantings are very dangerous. That info is for informational purposes only, so if you blow your friggin hand off or pinch your nipple with some exposed part, it isn't my friggin fault.

[P8ntBallBoom]

My on/off pin has worn down now, too, and so I'm getting rapid fire. I did notice that when the trigger is held down with more pressure, my bolt sticks and I need to degas and everything.
Another thing I noticed......I chopped a ball!! OMG, I nearly fainted when I saw a chopped ball in my mag.....then I realized it was probably the year old paint I was using.

Anyways, it's a new on/off pin for me come Monday when I order it.