Closed v. Open (Bolt)

[Paladin]

Closed bolt.

Vegeta writes:
"To me, Bud Orr isn't innovative.. *poof* !"

Just to set the record straight:
Bud didn't put a ram on his guns until I showed him how to adapt my system to his guns. However, you are close to the reason why pumps got automated. I built the first functional, gravity fed semi for myself in the fall of 1988 because I have a very bad shoulder left over from a Hi-school football injury and the act of pumping a paintgun several hundred times a day was killing me. I was faced with a choice of either figuring out how to automate my gun or basically quit playing Paintball. I was too badly hooked on the game to quit.

[Vegeta]

LOL i cant belive someone actually dug up that quote...

I didn't really mean to dis Bud... but now that I know if was really your idea... hmmm.. I mean your first few pump to semi conversions looked awesome, in my opinon. It's more of a nostalgig feeling of playing with a gun like that than it is on how good the gun performs. I would take one in a heartbeat if I had the chance, as any sane person would. They are pieces of history.. And hopefully in a hundred years when paintball is all changed, ppl will still refer to you, along with bud, Tom, Tippmann... etc for all the accomplishments. Isn't that a great feeling?

That is an awesome story... someone needs to publish it in APG or something. Bud shouldn't get so much credit.. :).

[Treghc]

Have you thought about this:

During rapid fire, there is absolutely NO difference between open and closed bolt.

Closed bolt:
When firing rapidly, the bolt moves back letting a ball in, then slams forward. Once in the forward position, it will immediately fire the paintball, the move back allowing another paintball to enter the breech. Depending on how fast you can shoot, the paintball should be propelled into the barrel as soon as the bolt even gets in the forward position.

Open bolt:
Just to get this straight with everyone, ALL GUNS THAT ARE UNDER THE SUN FIRE AT THE CLOSED BOLT POSITION. No matter what you say, it's true (with the exception of boltless markers such as the Epic).
Now since that is out of the way, here's how an open bolt marker works under rapid fire. A ball is inserted into the breech of the marker. Upon a trigger pull, the bolt is slammed forward to the forward position, only then is the air released through the bolt onto the paintball. Then the bolt moves backward, allowing another ball in.

Now think about this. Both guns let a paintball inside the breech, slam forward, then release pressurized air (or Co2 in some cases) onto the paintball to be propelled through the barrel. Afterwards, the bolt will move back again, allowing another paintball in, etc. Granted this is only rapid fire, but I do not know anyone that plays paintball by taking 1 shot per every second.

And, just to prove that all guns fire only when the bolt is at it's forward most position (well, forward enough to say that. there may be a .05" difference) I attached a picture of how a Matrix works. Hopefully now you will stop debating which one is better/more accurate/better range and finally figure out that they are exactly the same under rapid fire.

[Havoc_online]

Well there ya go, this one post solved all our problems

[Blazestorm]

First off, let me say that I'm just a 13 year old and know nothing about science, I just know logic

1.) It is truly the player holding the gun. If you had both guns in a vice grip pointing in the same direction, that is much different. Back when I had my phantom I could hit stuff dead on, because I took the time to line up my shots... where as when I let my friend shoot it, took him 10 shots to hit it :P

2.) The Matrix is neither closed or open bolt... not sure where I read that but it has its own bolt system.

The reason closed bolt seems more accurate is because of the trajectory, the air behind the ball is a small burst of high pressure air. When you fire a cocker, you pull the trigger, the ball is loaded, than the next time you fire the ball is launched before the next ball can even see the breach, the ball is than loaded again, under rapid fire its the same thing, the ball is shot before the next ball is loaded, with open bolt the ball is sitting in a state where it can move around, where as with closed bolt the ball is still for that tiny little bit of a second. When the bolt goes forward , with an open bolt gun, the first ball will have a better trajectory because it is in a still state, but what happens is the bolt slams forward and launches the ball which deforms the ball and shoots it at the same time and because of this deformation air must have to give the ball a slight forward spin, which in turn causes the ball to not shoot as far. If you take a z-bodied mag and get the knob turned right it will shoot just like cockers, because it gets deformed correct? and gets the forward spin, well the zbody reverses that and creates a straight shooting ball, you can even give the ball some backspin and have a automag-flatline. Also, have you thought about when the bolt slams back into place? that has to move the gun around a bit

On the woods recball field, I would take a cocker over an emag... but on an airball field, I would take the emag over a cocker

Why? Cockers have less recoil, which allows them to shoot straighter (I never said more accurate) in rapid fire, since woods fields usually have many hills and things, the straighter the shot the better. But on a speedball/airball course I'd take an emag... why... speed and reliablity. Although i've never had a cocker other than a very old revenge crap out on me. All cockers I've shot required a little bit of timing, which I can do in a few minutes, and they were shooting perfect. With my emag on an airball field, I can shoot plenty of paint, and since the field isn't usually much bigger than 100x30, the range doesn't matter, because I play mid/front, I can pop out and shoot 4-5 shots in half a second... which with my cocker I could shoot maybe 2-3 shots in that half second.

Automags are more consistent 100% I can say that, I had a stock automag with a pure energy 48/3000 and was shooting a perfect 284-285-286, my stock cocker on the other hand with 68/3000 flatline was shooting a good 270-280-290

These are all unscientific ideas, these are my 13 year old thoughts and are all logic... Don't flame me if I sounded stupid... :)

[Coaster]

I am not going to even mention all of your fallacies. I will just repost this:

Originally posted by Blazestorm
First off, let me say that I'm just a 13 year old and know nothing about science

[Treghc]

first of all, a Matrix is open bolt. The way you tell an open bolt from a closed bolt is the position in which the bolt sits at when not being fired. If the breech is open, it's open bolt. If the breech is closed, it's closed bolt. the Matrix does not have it's own bolt system, because there can only be two. You can't have a half and half, and you can't have a left and right. It's either open or closed. The special about the Matrix is the spool valve design. It uses no hammer and no moving parts except the bolt.

Second, I already stated how closed and open bolts perform and act exactly the same when under rapid fire. There's so little time for a closed bolt marker to rest the bolt, then shoot, it just makes no difference. Say I'm rapid firing with a Matrix. And (just for an example) say the bolt is pushed forward, then after 0.03 seconds, air is released. Now say I were rapidly firing a closed bolt marker. The gap between when the bolt is at rest and when it actually fires may be 0.04 or 0.05. The difference is so miniscule, you will so no noticeable difference. Also, the ball you are loading doesn't just stop instantly. It still carries kinetic energy and is moving, just as an open bolt marker would.

I'm pretty sure that Tom Kaye proved that there is no deformation inside the barrel. The paintball moves without any spin, and moves without being deformed when shot through the barrel. Once it leaves the barrel, there are a lot of other variables that take place.

The Z=body is just like a Flatline. It induces back spin on the ball to carry the ball a little further. This is useless and annoying. If you tip the gun, you'll spin the ball slightly right, or slightly left. So, unless you shoot perfectly straigh, your paintball is going to go veering off in the direction of the spin.

Range is entirely dependant on the shape of the ball, the wind, and velocity. Take a marble and set it on a table. Now roll it off. Mark how far it goes. Not take another marble and roll it off too, but with more force. The extra velocity carries it further before it hits the ground. The same thing with paintballs. You shoot a ball at 230 fps, it's not going to go as far as a paintball being shot at 300fps. It's simple logic and proven physics.

As for consistency, that's not really the gun. It's more of the reg you use. On my old Matrix, the very first three shots I got were all 279. After that I got 280, 278, 280, 279... The reg is what did it. Before I had my sidewinder on, I was getting 270-290. Same thing happened with my current Cocker. After I put my Sidewinder on that, Im getting 291, 292, 291, 290, 292, 291, etc... The reg plays the biggest role, along with your paint to barrel match and quality.

I'm not flaming you in any way. I used to think the same as you, but if you sit down and actually think about it, it all makes sense. Plus, it's all been proven as well.

[Blazestorm]

I was just saying what I thought, I guess what I thought was maybe half right isn't at all

[Treghc]

I know. I didn't mean to put ya down or anything, I just stated what I know. It jut so ahppens that it contradicts with your statements.

[Paladin]

This has really gotten very interesting and I really wish that I had the time to get into straightening out some of the missinformation getting spread here. Simply stated, there is in fact a huge difference between the operation of closed bolt and open bolt firing. Mainly in that when a closed bolt gun actually fires, everything has stopped moving and the ball is gone before the action starts to move again. Thus giving the air a solid wall behind it to push off of when propelling the ball. This is certainly not the case with traditional open bolt firing guns since the same blast of air that fires the ball is used to open the action. On the other hand, some of the electronic guns that utilize a ram instead of a spring to drive the hammer, can come close to the same interior ballistics potential as a closed bolt firing gun. A great deal has to do with the actual tuning of the gun (efficiency) as well as it's weight and type of action. A well tuned gun can be very accurate, efficient and consistent. Regardless of its method of operation.

That is all I have time for for now but I will have time to fight the flames whe I return to the US after Nov. 7. Currently in Thailand.

Originally posted by AGD
Nice discussion here guys. Yes lets say that reciprocating weight does have an effect on recoil and gun movement. Then by that thinking a heavy gun would be at an advantage because it's greater mass would move less. Do you see any accuracy difference between light an heavy markers?

AGD

ps someone measure the weight of a cocker hammer and rod and a Superbolt.

[_Spork_1]

the warpig test that was done, is not something you can base facts off, they used stingrays, thats all, have you people seen the barrel on the sting ray? thats enough to take that experiment out of even questioning

[Treghc]

Doesn't matter if the barrel were crap. If open bolt were indeed less accurate then closed bolt, it would show. Just like if you had a better barrel, but the spread wouldn't be so severe.

People have converted cockers into open bolt guns and have found no accuracy difference at all. In some cases, people have even experienced better consistency when their cocker was operating with open bolt.

[_Spork_1]

y es it does matter that the barrel was crap, its unprdictble, theres to many variables to add in with the stingray test at warpig, i only see open bolt people accepting that as a test thta prooves it, even though that test was crap

[billmi]

Originally posted by Blazestorm

2.) The Matrix is neither closed or open bolt... not sure where I read that but it has its own bolt system.

That's just marketing gobeldy gook.

Open Bolt/Closed Bolt refers to the bolt position when the gun is at rest, not at the moment of firing.

Sitting between shots, the bolt on the Matrix is open. Thus it is an "Open Bolt," paintgun.

Because there is a common belief that closed bolt guns have some sort of inherrent advantage, Air Power, manufacturers of the Vector (same designer as the Rainmaker later) said that the Open bolt Vector was a "simulated closed bolt paintgun" because it closed the bolt before firing. That's just "marketing speak" - all paintguns with a bolt close the bolt before firing, whether they are open bolt or not. Similarly, people have applied the same term to the Matrix as a way of trying to hold onto the "closed bolt superiority" idea in the face of an accurate open bolt paintgun.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[billmi]

Originally posted by _Spork_1
y es it does matter that the barrel was crap,

What problems did that barrel have, specifically?
What features of it made it "crap" compared to a "good" barrel?
What features does a barrel need to not be "crap?"

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills