Electros without solenoids

[Bad_Dog]

what about a combustion powered ram?

utalizing something like propane?

just like the piston in an engine...
gasous mixture is ignited, piston gets moved, whichsear gets pushed...

[brianlojeck]

does a piezo element need to vibrate more then one cycle to make an audible noise, or would a piezo activated valve "beep" with every cycle?

;-)

[ZyperioN]

this is all very interesting but i think the solenoid valve still beats every idea put forth so far in speed, reliability and safety (combustion ram/propane...wow somehow i cant seem to think that propane and electronics mix all that well). some of these ideas sound like brass eagle would love them, cheap, unreliable, and it breaks after 2000 cycles. sounds just like my talon...

As for advancing gun technology we need to concentrate our thought on the mechanics of the valve/bolt/seals combo rather than the electronics that drive them, there is where we need to make the improvements.

[cybershark]

brianlojeck - Piezos only "beep" because they're being sent an analog waveform that makes them come on and off in a cycle just like a speaker. The actual element inside the wafers of metal is vibrating on and off to create the soundwaves. The gun would make a tiny click with a pure piezo element activator. Something like the sound of a solenoid activating (very very quiet)

Zyperion - I agree. Currently these ideas are weak, unreliable substitutes at best. More likely they are failed tests waiting to happen. To think that a piezo disc or nitinol wire are going to pull a standard poppet valve style gun is pretty far fetched. To think that it'll sufficiently trigger an air piloted valve is a little harsh. The bigger issue is that these are other ways of changing electronic signals into mechanical motion. With a different plan for how we bridge the electronics to the mechanical side we may be able to improve efficiency and performance. Current designs all have their origins in mechanical markers. If you can design a gun to completely rely on, and take advantage of, the electro-mechanical capabilities of these different systems then you can possibly create something even better. Perhaps a gun that gets almost 100% air efficency by doing all it's activation by electro-mechanical means only. Maybe a system that uses such low current that it can power itself on the waste energy of the recock mechanisms. Just for a fanciful example, wouldn't it be nice to have something like an A5 that used that waste gas from recocking to drive a tiny generator that the gun could use to run it's electronics. If you could generate enough power to get the next shot off just the energy wasted by the gun then it it could completely power its own electronic trigger. Normal sear tripper 'noids are far too power hungry for this, but perhaps a new system of activation can be developed. That new system is what this thread is for...

[ScatterPlot]

Something like the sound of a solenoid activating (very very quiet)

No, it would have less sound than a trigger clinking. The solenoid moves a lot and makes a loud (in comparison) click. A piezo would produce one (1) wave of sound in likely a very very high frequency; in other words, a sound that would be indetectible to all but the best sound measurement systems.

To think that a piezo disc or nitinol wire are going to pull a standard poppet valve style gun is pretty far fetched. To think that it'll sufficiently trigger an air piloted valve is a little harsh.

Yeah it is; that's why I've been suggesting making a completely NEW type of valve that relies on the unique properties of piezos to move the air, not use one to activate an existing valve.


I think the nitinol stuff probably won't work well for our application, due to the inherent slowness in activation. Maybe a different alloy would work better but that is yet to be invented (or at least used).

That new system is what this thread is for...

Well yeah, kinda, but I originally made it for the discussion of mainy piezo-actuated valves. I think there is SOME potential for the piezo in here.

So far the only way of electronics use in paintball markers have been with solenoids. There has got to be at least ANOTHER way to do this. Maybe not much better, but maybe equivalent.

Solenoids pull a lot of power compared to what you can generate with a reciprocating bolt in one movement. Now piezos, on the other hand...
That would be able to be generated. For example, by striking another piezo? There HAS to be a way to do this other than solenoids.

[cybershark]

i meant the other solenoids...sorry..

guess I didn't clarify...I meant solenoid controlled valve. I'm kinda tired (been rebuilding the shop for my new mill), so I wasn't as clear as I shoulda been. if you've ever taken a bettery and hooked it directly to a piezo disc you can hear it click. It's about the same as putting an eblade in classic mode. with the gun degassed as you release the trigger, if you put your ear up to the solenoid valve housing you'll hear it click.

as far as using piezos to trigger the gun's action. I'm all in for furthering that one. I know I originally proposed the nitinol, but that's using a different valve design that I'm not ready to discuss. It'll probably never happen due to the slow actuation/reset times, but nevertheless you can't always show your full hand...


I don't see how a standard piezo crystal will provide enough travel, but with some other piezo parts you may be able to get somewhere. I once saw plans for building a scanning tunneling microscope with piezo actuators in a stack. Fine voltage control and 3 crystals gave very fine x,y,z mobility over a few nanometers. The morale of the story is: these things BARELY move at all.

got any links to some "large" (1mm) travel piezo stuff?

[ScatterPlot]

I gotcha about the sound thing, silly me I forgot about that click.

The thing is I don't know anything about piezos, that was why I put up this thread. What I'm thinking is maybe like an oring around a cone-shaped piezo or maybe cylinder shaped or whatever, then when it activates it changes shape by enough to move some air to maybe another air-piloted valve. I bet with a big enough piezo with a good shape would be able to move at least 1mm, and that could just be used to actuate the hAIR mechanism or something. But whatever.

[cybershark]

some further research...

well haven't I just learned a lot with a little successful googling...here's a few tidbits...

Quartz is a piezoelectric type of crystal, take 2 pieces of aluminum and sandwich a quartz crystal between them. now attach the aluminum pieces to wires and a speaker. tap crystal and you should hear a click as a high voltage, low current pulse is generated....I'd need some quartz to experiment with (and I may just have a piece or 2 in a drawer), but I'm definitely gonna try to see what happens when you put it in a pressurized environment. Perhaps the squeeze of a gun's air pressure could generate some power from a crystal.

Also, look into "Rochelle Salt" a chemical process lets you grow these piezo type crystals with what appears to be relative ease. Could be fun to try. Also with tainting the solution with other materials they grew different shapes. I only found this referenced when using copper, but if you want a cone perhaps it's possible.

Actually thats the way quartz clock generators work...they use the expansion and contraction of quartz to get their frequency. There cycle rates are far too fast for paintball, but perhaps there is another crystal we can use. look up ferroelectric materials and piezo...this needs to be a distributed task if we're gonna find anything useful...

[ScatterPlot]

I wonder if you could grow a big one and then lathe it down to a new shape?

[Enos Shenk]

I wonder if you could grow a big one and then lathe it down to a new shape?

Seems to me it would shatter.

[matt-o]

what about an electromagnet that just pulls the trigger of the gun upon activation, or a motor that pulls the trigger. both are simple although that dont really amount to much more than just sear trippers now that i think about it

[Aleis]

something that might work with those muscle wries to increase cycle time would be to mount two in opposing directions. maybe it would pul the other one out of it's complete compressed state would have to be used with the spring type, i'd think but it might work

[CrimsonTurkey]

what about an electromagnet that just pulls the trigger of the gun upon activation

You essentially just invented the solenoid.

My question is, if you force some nitonol to regain its origional shape, with out letting it cool down regularly. Would this damage the wire and could it recycle?

[cybershark]

Aleis - it's a possible road to travel, but you have to make sure the nitinol is very efficient now. You've just doubled the amount of power required to make it work. I don't suppose anyone has any numbers or experimental data?

CrimsonTurkey - Nitinol is a shape memory alloy...essentially the stuff was created to be bent out of shape and forced back in. It holds up very well to repeated cycling as long as you keep within its tolerances. The big question is: Do Nitinol's tolerances allow it to have a paintball valving role or not?

Both these questions lead to one thing...we need test data to tell whether or not any further exploration is feasible....


One other road...perhaps you can use nitinol or piezos to tip a very closely managed scale. Something like how the MagRT uses chamber pressure to lighten the pull, but keep the return strong. If you balance the activation of the gun with air pressure it may only take the slightest nudge from something like a large piezo crystal to send it out of balance and fire the gun.

[Aleis]

well if they don't work well in a presured valve situation mount the filaments out side teh valve connected to a pin much like the Mag on/off