New Ball Design(s?)

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  • Jakedubbleya
    Don Quixote
    • Mar 2005
    • 631

    #1

    New Ball Design(s?)

    Since im new and this is about the first post ive made, ill admit that I dont actually own a mag, but like everybody else in the paintball world, I highly respect the ideas and progress that have been made to the paintball community as a whole by the mere existance of this forum.

    Anyway... ive been reading through the stickied paintball spin thread in this deep blue section, and im no physicist, but it became increasingly evident the more i read, that the paintballs we use today are very poorly designed, and while our marker technology has advanced, the paint, as a whole, has not.

    I think its time somebody came up with a new paintball, and i think ive got just the ideas to get us started, keep in mind these are not perfect designs by any means, and there are still a few x factors.

    Sponge filling...


    Allowing, i am 60% sure, for the paintball to act as a solid. This opens up many possibilites for barrel and paint shell design that would allow for both increased ball break %, and superior accuracy and range.

    Problems:

    1. the paint would move around almost as much as in an empty shell wouldnt it? whats the point?

    2. sponges are bendy, evin if you could design a sponge that was capable of holding the paint in one place, the sponge itself would just squish to the back of the ball when fired wouldnt it? Creating the same kind of problems as a liquid filling.

    Solutions:

    1. A sponge material would have to be designed that could retain the liquid, or paste, within its mebrane with minimal transferrance..

    2. The filling of the ball would haveto be mainly high tension material that would not bend, supporting the sponge parts, which would ideally be as high tension as possible as well, we dont need to get much paint into these things, because when they break they are going to leave a clear marking.

    Idea #2

    Solid Adhesive Paintballs

    A hollow design, the shell being made of a brittle material that has been layered with adhesive. When these collapse on the target, they stick.
    -----------------------------------------------

    I play stock, so I sympathise with the need to make paintball marking a more accurate and
    reliable process. The current situation really puts the stock player at a disadvantage, you really never know when your going to get a bad ball or unlucky seam split. I feel this is a large reason why paintball has evolved into the paint throwing fest that it is today, too short of an effective range.

    Any other ideas? Comments? I highly value feedback:)
  • undescriptive
    Battered and Bruised
    • Apr 2004
    • 279

    #2
    how about a collapseable honeycomb style of paintball with a shell

    it would give it more structure, hold the paint evenly in the sphere, would shatter on impact better (I believe)and it should make the paint more round in manufacture....

    the only thing that would have to happen, is that the honeycomb is made, the gelcaps are fitted around the outside, then the paint fill would have to be injected, then the paint tumbled.....

    just my 2p worth

    Comment

    • athomas
      Of course it works-its AGD
      • Jan 2002
      • 8039

      #3
      The major problem I see with this idea is that the strength of the paintball itself would be increased. That would lead to more bounces and more welts upon impact. If you decrease the shell strength to compensate, then the outside becomes very brittle, so handling would then be an issue. Plus any non liquid fill adds more solid material which becomes leftover debris.

      I don't think the liquid and distortion of the paintball during firing is all that big of a problem. Most errant balls are usually just bad or miss shaped. Anyone that has shot good quality fresh paint can truly say that it does shoot very well, and very consistent. Just remember, a paintball is round. It is not aerodynamic no matter what you make it out of, or how you maintain its shape.
      Except for the Automag in front, its usually the man behind the equipment that counts.

      Comment

      • undescriptive
        Battered and Bruised
        • Apr 2004
        • 279

        #4
        true...

        just put on the thinking cap again for a couple of minutes.....

        would making a paintball that is half round (as normal) with a "fluted" back half (does that make sense?) improve the flight characteristics?it would still be round, but it might control the vortecies in the trail.....

        if no-one understands what I'm banging on about, I can probably make a quick picture to explain it better....

        Comment

        • Pyroboy597
          We need more room for titl
          • May 2004
          • 518

          #5
          I think all of these are good ideas, but unless you want paint to be 200 a case.. i think we have to stick with wat we got.
          IM SORRY AO FOR DISOBEYING YOUR SIG RULES!!!! FORGIVE ME!!!

          Comment

          • ScatterPlot
            Not pop, it's all Coke
            • Jan 2002
            • 1960

            #6
            "Yes BC can affect things in flight. Problem is that all spheres have the same drag coefficient with is something like .7 or .8. The nylon balls being perfectly round to better than 1000th of and inch and missing the seam should fly straight and true but they don't. In fact the shot group for nylon balls is hard to differentiate from regular paint."
            Quoted from the spin thread.

            The problem is NOT that the fill doesn't spin- the spinning an egg argument is not valid. It's because the paintballs are spheres. And that is all. No spinning fill or anything. Just that they are round. As I think Aegis pointed out in the spin thread, if a solid nylon ball doesn't have any better accuracy than a liquid filled paintball, then it is not the liquid that is making the innacuracies- it is the fact that spheres are just plain crap when it comes to aerodynamics. Liquid or solid filled. Hey, freeze some paintballs and shoot them at a target. They won't be any more or less accurate (unless there is some major distortion due to expansions and stuff).
            AIM-bertmcmahan
            My email:[email protected]
            My feedback thread
            Good traders: richie,Roguefactor,moufo48,845,brtncstm160,vf-xx

            Mags don't shoot darts... they shoot nails.
            I used to be bertmcmahan, that I did.

            Comment

            • SlartyBartFast
              The Flying Scotsman
              • Jun 2002
              • 2940

              #7
              The problem with paintballs, as Scatterplot says, is weight, speed, and shape.

              None of which you can change enough to make a diference without becoming too expensive or dangerous.

              AGD makes perfect circle balls and the ammo for the FN303 if you have a rediculously large paintball budget...

              Comment

              • noahyay
                Registered User
                • Aug 2004
                • 350

                #8
                i think paintballs should not have paint in them, just be very light so they dont hurt too much and
                PEOPLE SHOULD JUST BE HONEST

                they would be more round and more consistantly made im sure

                i am against ramping boards and our field is semi auto and consider it cheating, we have this deal with the refs at our field, we practically work there, where if we catch someone wiping, we can push them out of the bunker

                just a little nudge so they get lit up

                only happened once though hehe
                rt pro w/ lvlx etc.
                custom milled out y frame
                empire barrel kit
                ult
                custom 15 degree
                custom milled rail
                cut ule body
                steel hose with QD's
                custom welded drop
                90/45 nitro duck x-stream
                halo tsa w/ custom paint job
                soon to get warp

                custom palmer microrock front grip for future trigger for ^

                http://www.noahkool.com

                Comment

                • athomas
                  Of course it works-its AGD
                  • Jan 2002
                  • 8039

                  #9
                  Originally posted by undescriptive
                  would making a paintball that is half round (as normal) with a "fluted" back half (does that make sense?) improve the flight characteristics?it would still be round, but it might control the vortecies in the trail.....
                  The problem would then become, how to load the ball. There were fins that you used to be able to buy to attach to the back of balls to make sniperballs. They apparently worked quite well, but were a pain to load via muzzle loading. It wasn't as much of an issue in the pump game back around 1990.
                  Except for the Automag in front, its usually the man behind the equipment that counts.

                  Comment

                  • SlartyBartFast
                    The Flying Scotsman
                    • Jun 2002
                    • 2940

                    #10
                    Originally posted by athomas
                    The problem would then become, how to load the ball. There were fins that you used to be able to buy to attach to the back of balls to make sniperballs. They apparently worked quite well, but were a pain to load via muzzle loading. It wasn't as much of an issue in the pump game back around 1990.
                    Well, I've said it before on AO...

                    A Q-loader that can load FN-303 rounds.

                    Manike has already discovered a problem with the FN-303 shape. Without a heavy front end (FN-303 rounds use bismuth) the shape will actually make the round tumble erratically.

                    Comment

                    • Jakedubbleya
                      Don Quixote
                      • Mar 2005
                      • 631

                      #11
                      Quoted from the spin thread.

                      The problem is NOT that the fill doesn't spin- the spinning an egg argument is not valid. It's because the paintballs are spheres. And that is all. No spinning fill or anything. Just that they are round. As I think Aegis pointed out in the spin thread, if a solid nylon ball doesn't have any better accuracy than a liquid filled paintball, then it is not the liquid that is making the innacuracies- it is the fact that spheres are just plain crap when it comes to aerodynamics. Liquid or solid filled. Hey, freeze some paintballs and shoot them at a target. They won't be any more or less accurate (unless there is some major distortion due to expansions and stuff).
                      If i remember correctly, cannons use rifling with round shot.

                      Also the case with muskets.

                      Accuracy once rifling was developed for early cannons (civil war), was HUGELY increased.

                      I dont know whether rifling would work well for the low speeds of paint... but there are other advantages to a solid projectile that we could surely take advantage of.

                      As for it being too brittle or too painfull, the outside could be coated in a thinner latex similar to the paintball shells we use now. I like the honeycomb idea, its probably better than the layered outsides idea, just combine it with adhesive...

                      Comment

                      • SlartyBartFast
                        The Flying Scotsman
                        • Jun 2002
                        • 2940

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Jakedubbleya
                        If i remember correctly, cannons use rifling with round shot.

                        Also the case with muskets..
                        But....

                        Actual firearms/canon:
                        - Use MUCH heavier ammunition
                        - Fire at MUCH greater velocities
                        - Have ammunition that is forced through the barrel to impart HIGH rpm spin.

                        AGD showed that a paintball spun to some rediculous rpm has NO added accuracy.

                        Vortex shedding is just too great a force compared to the weight of a paintball.

                        Comment

                        • Jakedubbleya
                          Don Quixote
                          • Mar 2005
                          • 631

                          #13
                          first off, the only thing AGD proved was that PAINTBALLS, dont have increased accuracy with high speed rotation.

                          solid, softer, heavyer balls that collapse without increased pain in the target may allow for increased FPS/rrange, which alone would require new tests to see if they could be spun effectively.

                          I think that there is a chance that we can modify the balls enough to make markers shoot like muskets, obviously this would requiere a lot of time and effort and millions of trial and errors, but the benefits would be without a doubt worth it.

                          Comment

                          • ScatterPlot
                            Not pop, it's all Coke
                            • Jan 2002
                            • 1960

                            #14
                            I don't think you're gonna find anything that hits softer than a paintball for the same size and weight, especially heavier weights. I think I read somewhere that the FN303 ammo was putting dents in a steel door- they're about 2.5x heavier and are travelling at about 400 fps, but they will still break probably close enough to the same as paintballs. Just hit harder.
                            AIM-bertmcmahan
                            My email:[email protected]
                            My feedback thread
                            Good traders: richie,Roguefactor,moufo48,845,brtncstm160,vf-xx

                            Mags don't shoot darts... they shoot nails.
                            I used to be bertmcmahan, that I did.

                            Comment

                            • Jakedubbleya
                              Don Quixote
                              • Mar 2005
                              • 631

                              #15
                              A collapsing design, if done right, would decrease the inpact by a ton, liek a spring, allowing for heavyer weight.

                              Although there would definitely haveto be soem safety precautions regarding their manufacture.

                              Comment

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