How many times can an autococker cycle per second?

[Paladin]

Originally posted by nicad


Glenn- a little off topic (but hey.. did someone say something an autotocker cycling..?) :) , was wondering why yall didnt put filters in the necks of the Rock regs to reduce/eleiminate this sort of problem? I believe the Shocktech regs come with filters in them..
later-
Colin

Cintered metal filters present their own set of problems and our valving is not nearly as susceptable to the garbage that would quickly kill many other regs. The schrader style valve used in the Shocktech regs is extremely vulnerable to seal problems from debris.

[ES13Raven]

Originally posted by Paladin
Quite honestly, I can't address the recharge rate of the WDP mini because I haven't yet disected that particular model for analysis.

Glen...
Here is a diagram of the WDP/Govnair minireg. What can you tell us about the design?

[Paladin]

Originally posted by ES13Raven
Glen...
Here is a diagram of the WDP/Govnair minireg. What can you tell us about the design?

Pretty much the same layout as the rest of that style reg.
Regulated air pressure against the top side of the large piston overcomes the pressure between the two small seals and pushes the large piston back to close off the air thru the large pistion by pushing the tip of the large piston against the seal on the tip of the small piston. However, I can see details as to orofice sizes and shapes so I cannot offer an analysis of it's potential.

[Butterfingers]

Glenn what would be the effect of using compressed helium gas to power paintball guns. According to the Root Mean Square Equation (RMS) for ideal gasses gasses that are lower in molecular weight have a higher velocity and thus flow faster.

For example Diatomic Nitrogen (N2) has a molecular weight of 28 amu.

Compared to Co2 which has a molecular weight of 44 amu.

If you take the root mean square of the ratio of (28/44)^-1/2 you will find that the ratio corresponds to 5/7.

This means that co2 flows at 5/7ths the speed of N2.

This explains one reason why gaseous co2 is slower than gaseous N2. This data also seems to correlate with your experimental data.

Helium has a molecular weight of 2 amu

If you plugged helium into the RMS equation compared to compressed air (2/28)^-1/2

You will find that helium flows more than 5 times faster than nitrogen. This could prove useful in maxing the potential of the pnumataics.

[Paladin]

Good question !! May just have to get a tank of helium and see what it will do. I don't know how to calculate what the effects would be so I would have to experience what transpires in a given setup during direct comparisons.
Ceratilny, the internal balistics/acceleration process of the shot will be affected and I would guess that cycling speeds and recharge rates would be faster.

Originally posted by Butterfingers
Glenn what would be the effect of using compressed helium gas to power paintball guns. According to the Root Mean Square Equation (RMS) for ideal gasses gasses that are lower in molecular weight have a higher velocity and thus flow faster.

For example Diatomic Nitrogen (N2) has a molecular weight of 28 amu.

Compared to Co2 which has a molecular weight of 44 amu.

If you take the root mean square of the ratio of (28/44)^-1/2 you will find that the ratio corresponds to 5/7.

This means that co2 flows at 5/7ths the speed of N2.

This explains one reason why gaseous co2 is slower than gaseous N2. This data also seems to correlate with your experimental data.

Helium has a molecular weight of 2 amu

If you plugged helium into the RMS equation compared to compressed air (2/28)^-1/2

You will find that helium flows more than 5 times faster than nitrogen. This could prove useful in maxing the potential of the pnumataics.

[nicad]

{dumb}
..not to mention helium would make your tank lighter as you get an "air" fill! lol..
{/dumb}

[Paladin]

Originally posted by nicad
{dumb}
..not to mention helium would make your tank lighter as you get an "air" fill! lol..
{/dumb}

Ya, and everyone would be sounding like Donald Duck.

[DarkRipper]

Originally posted by Paladin


Ya, and everyone would be sounding like Donald Duck.

Especially indoors!! You beat me to it.


DR

[hitech]

Someone has tried it:

Originally posted by AGD
Our friend Ed Head did try helium. Didn't hardly shoot the ball but make big boom! Not enough gram moles to get the ball going and it leaked out of all the orings (really small molecules). Great discussion here guys.

AGD

[Paladin]

Originally posted by hitech
Someone has tried it:

Makes sense.I didn't think that the very low density of the gas would allow for propper acceleration.
Shows why I continue to prefer CO2 over compressed air/N2.

[nicad]

Guess what yall? I actually have something here that has something to do with the topic! :)
Jom (dunno if he posts here) over on the racegun fourm posted this clip of him with his Race cocker in full auto, equiped with an ACE, and fed by a Halo. my cheezy analysis of the audio track results in about 17 to 17.5 bps over most of the clip. the halo starts slowing down (low on paint) in the end and thus the fall off of speed.

http://www.compulsivepaintball.com/jom/racemovie3.avi

n'joy!

[Butterfingers]

The problem with helium is not that it does not provide enough energy to propell the ball.

The problem is that it flows too fast and the paintball does not adequately seal before it leaks between the irregularities in the breach bolt and paintball.

If you had a perfect seal it would propel the paintball with the same amount of force. 600psi equals 600psi no matter how we put it.

Pressure in a vessel or the pressure that propells a paintball is determined by the elastic collisions of gas molecules upon the walls of a container or paintball. In which kinetic energy is for the most part conserved.

To put this into perspective. A molecule of nitrogen is a dump truck. A molecule of helium is a car. The dump truck is moving at 10 mph the car is moving at 100 mph. They both have the same energy.

The car "stores" its energy as speed.

The truck "stores" its energy as mass.

If they both hit an object they will transfer the same amount of energy.

The Root Mean Square equation is derived from the kinetic energy of gasses. And assumed to be equal under a certain pressure.

It is assumed that the kinetic energy of gas particles under the same pressure have the same kinetic energy. 1/2mv^2=1/2mv^2. The Root Mean Squared equation is derived from this equation.

To simulate this situation put a .30 caliber paintball into the barrel of a .68 caliber paintball gun then fire the gun.

The ball will simply bloop out.

[Paladin]

Major confusion !!!
A car and a truck both have basically the same molecular density though 1 obviously has less mass.
Seems contrary to your conclusions as to cause.
With such low molecular density, it cannot impart the energy from it's high speed on the ball. Remember, it's density is only 1/14th that of air but it only moves about 5 times faster. Just doesn't add up.
If the low density gas could impart its will onto the ball effectively, simple acceleration will generate enough lineal upset of the ball to create the seal in the breach.
The "leaks" around the ball would be sealed if the gas was dense enough to impart its energy to the ball.

Originally posted by Butterfingers
The problem with helium is not that it does not provide enough energy to propell the ball.

The problem is that it flows too fast and the paintball does not adequately seal before it leaks between the irregularities in the breach bolt and paintball.

If you had a perfect seal it would propel the paintball with the same amount of force. 600psi equals 600psi no matter how we put it.

Pressure in a vessel or the pressure that propells a paintball is determined by the elastic collisions of gas molecules upon the walls of a container or paintball. In which kinetic energy is for the most part conserved.

To put this into perspective. A molecule of nitrogen is a dump truck. A molecule of helium is a car. The dump truck is moving at 10 mph the car is moving at 100 mph. They both have the same energy.

The car "stores" its energy as speed.

The truck "stores" its energy as mass.

If they both hit an object they will transfer the same amount of energy.

The Root Mean Square equation is derived from the kinetic energy of gasses. And assumed to be equal under a certain pressure.

It is assumed that the kinetic energy of gas particles under the same pressure have the same kinetic energy. 1/2mv^2=1/2mv^2. The Root Mean Squared equation is derived from this equation.

To simulate this situation put a .30 caliber paintball into the barrel of a .68 caliber paintball gun then fire the gun.

The ball will simply bloop out.

[pbjosh]

Uhm,

So, if we found a Gas that had a molecular density higher than CO2 how might that affect the action of the paintball gun and the efficentcy?

Josh

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by Paladin
Major confusion !!!
A car and a truck both have basically the same molecular density though 1 obviously has less mass.
Seems contrary to your conclusions as to cause.
With such low molecular density, it cannot impart the energy from it's high speed on the ball. Remember, it's density is only 1/14th that of air but it only moves about 5 times faster. Just doesn't add up.
If the low density gas could impart its will onto the ball effectively, simple acceleration will generate enough lineal upset of the ball to create the seal in the breach.
The "leaks" around the ball would be sealed if the gas was dense enough to impart its energy to the ball.

Kinetic energy of a particle quadruples as speed doubles.

its a expotential relationship.

To put this into perspective...

A 53 grain .223 Remington (1200 ft/lbs) at 3300 fps has more muzzle energy that a 230 Grain .45 (356 ft/lbs) at 835 fps.

The .45 weighs about 4 times as much and is about 4 times slower. If speed and mass were proportional the muzzle energies would be the same.

As you can see the muzzle energy of the smaller .223 is over 3 times greater.

As a side note this is why velocities must be kept under 300 fps.

Doubling the velocity quadruples the energy!