Smith & Wesson M&P9

[Spider-TW]

H&K USP? I've got a full-frame 9mm, and I'm thinking of switching to the compact model. Love it, particularly the ability to switch from either lefty or righty for all the functions.

Is it accurate? I tried a .40 and couldn't do very well with it, so I asked the owner (of previously demonstrated ability) to 'show me', but he couldn't do any better. I expected better from H&K and it could have been the choice of ammo.

[SCpoloRicker]

I did not care for the .40 USP, but I'm not a fan of that round anyways. I'm not really the best person to speak to accuracy of various models.

[Lohman446]

The 40 is not a well conceived modern handgun round.

Little history lesson:

The FBI indicates it might be open to a new round

S+W gets hold of information about the Bren Ten project - a project to design a modern handgun (and ammo) from the ground up. A project that had such heralds as Jeff Cooper. However, the company folded before its concept could be brought fully to market. The 10MM is born in this concept

Influential people in the FBI have heard of this project.

S+W designs a gun from the ground up to handle this new round.

This new round far exceeds the 9MM and .45 in ballistic gelatin testing. Noone seems to note that the 9MM is hampered by the use of poor bullet choice (147 grain). These tests are fatally flawed (each gun uses only a single ammunition). Regardless the 10MM is far better in these tests in both stopping power (as defined by the FBI "experts") and accuracy than the 9MM or 45 in the situations tested.

The 10MM is an awesome round. Testing and theory puts it up there with the the obscure 41 magnum as possibly being the best "reasonable" cartridge for stopping power. Its .40 caliber and allows the use of high capacity magazines.

The FBI adopts the full power 10MM.

The FBI finds out that some of its cadets and smaller agents (many of whom have limited firearms experience) are developing bad habits in trying to tame the 10MMs recoil with full power loads

The FBI instructs its ammo manufacturers to come up with a downloaded version.

This downloaded version never sees great testing for the characteristics that made it the top load in previous testing.

S+W has an epiphany. A downloaded 10MM uses less powder. Less powder means a shorter case may actually be beneficial. S+W develops (quickly) the .40 S+W.

The 40 S+W performs comparbly to the dowloaded 10MM (of course). Comparisons to the 10MM and the 40 fail to mention they are comparing a downloaded 10 and full power loads for the 10 still far exceed the 40.

In the meantime very little advancement has been done with the 9MM.

The 40 (with questionable bullet choice) is compared to the 9MM (with questionable bullet choice). The 40 does better than the 9MM. There is still this stage where the 9MM is being made better with the horrible choice of the 147 grain bullet. Noone bothers to note that the 9MM with high quality 115 grain ammo is so close to in line with the 40 that there is virtually no difference.

The 40 is marketed as the high capacity ultimate stopping power cartridge. Those marketing it market it as the answer to those who cannot decide between a 9MM or 45. 9MM capacity with 45 stopping power. Noone seems to mention the 45 has better stopping power. NOONE points out the tremendous advantages of full power loads in the 10MM.

The 40 S+W (short and weak to 10MM fans) is born and rides its hype to popularity (don't get me wrong the 40 is a good cartridge, as good as and marginally better than the beloved 9MM).

People hype this as the modern handgun ammunition, very seldom mentioning that its simply the red headed step child of an effort (some would argue successful) to build an awesome fighting round (the 10MM).

The 40S+W is forced into platforms built for the 9MM. Without platforms built ground up for it there is no comfortable "home". There is no modern weapon built with consideration of the .40 as its own individual cartridge in the design. Its simply a modified 9MM platform.

Someone somewhere decides that a .40 cartridge can be necked down to 9MM. The 357 Sig is born. Thats another whole discussion

[Steelrat]

I just hate the .40 because the damn round is so wide, rechambering the same round a few times actually pushes is back into the case, which can easily cause a misfire. My .40 sig does this ALL THE TIME. With my 9mm sig, I could rechamber the same round over and over without any issues. The .40 is just too wide to smoothly go up the feed ramp.

If I could, I'd still be using the 9mm.

[Lohman446]

The 40 (and to some degree the 357 Sig) were answering a question that could have been answered better at the time by changes to the 9MM ammunition than by revamping entire guns. Granted the 40 was not an answer to the 9MM stopping power issues, it was an answer to the 10MM recoil issues.

When you start comparing 40, 357SIG, and 9MM using the best cartridges for each (in terms of ballistic testing) you find there is really not much difference in terms of stopping powers

Saw a Glock 20 (10MM) used today for $450. It almost came home with me :) It would have if practice ammo didn't hover around $30 a box.

The purpose of this post: Get a 9MM - ammos cheaper. Practice more :) Its worth it

[Steelrat]

Agreed. Good 9mm ammo is just as good as most .40 or .357 sig when it comes to stopping power, and 9mm practice is definately cheaper.

[Pneumagger]

Steelrat, They MAKE you use a .40?
What if you can demonstrate proficiency with a 10mm and you wanted that instead?
IMO, there should be a bracket of minimum and maximum cartridge specs and a list of approved platforms.

Personally, if I didn't have to worry about concealing something I'd weild a Para P14 with a deep stack of HST +P in the well.
Accurate, reliable, good capacity, and plenty of power on tap. The only debate there would be 185gr or 230gr

[LegumeOfTerror]

I just hate the .40 because the damn round is so wide, rechambering the same round a few times actually pushes is back into the case, which can easily cause a misfire. My .40 sig does this ALL THE TIME. With my 9mm sig, I could rechamber the same round over and over without any issues. The .40 is just too wide to smoothly go up the feed ramp.

If I could, I'd still be using the 9mm.

any round will have setback if re chambered frequently, which can lead to increased chamber pressures and damage to the firearm. its a bad idea in general to re-chamber the same round over and over, which is why whenever i empty my handgun the round that was in the chamber goes to the bottom of the magazine, where as a lot of people cycle between the top two over and over.

[Steelrat]

any round will have setback if re chambered frequently, which can lead to increased chamber pressures and damage to the firearm. its a bad idea in general to re-chamber the same round over and over, which is why whenever i empty my handgun the round that was in the chamber goes to the bottom of the magazine, where as a lot of people cycle between the top two over and over.

The point is, I can't even do it twice with the same round. That's just wrong. Obviously you aren't going to do it 20 times, but the .40 definately has issue with this.

[Lohman446]

Steelrat, They MAKE you use a .40?
What if you can demonstrate proficiency with a 10mm and you wanted that instead?
IMO, there should be a bracket of minimum and maximum cartridge specs and a list of approved platforms.

Personally, if I didn't have to worry about concealing something I'd weild a Para P14 with a deep stack of HST +P in the well.
Accurate, reliable, good capacity, and plenty of power on tap. The only debate there would be 185gr or 230gr

I'd either go with a Sig P226? in 357 Sig or a Glock 20. The 20 gives you 16 shots of hot loaded 10MM. The only question would be if I wanted a round I could double tap with or not.

Than again, if concealability is not an issue there are a few good 12 gauges and combat carbines I would pick over any pistol :) .

[LegumeOfTerror]

The point is, I can't even do it twice with the same round. That's just wrong. Obviously you aren't going to do it 20 times, but the .40 definately has issue with this.

do you have to use a particular brand of ammo? some brands set back worse than others depending on how they seat the bullet. some use a thin sealant around it that you can break with repeated chambering, and most dont recommend more than 3 feeds with any single round. JHPs are more prone to setback because they don't feed as smoothly. your the only person ive ever heard complain about this with regards to a particular caliber, and I'm pretty sure its not due to the wide bullet or .45s everywhere would unseat like mad. what brand are you using? are they all from the same lot?

[Steelrat]

do you have to use a particular brand of ammo? some brands set back worse than others depending on how they seat the bullet. some use a thin sealant around it that you can break with repeated chambering, and most dont recommend more than 3 feeds with any single round. JHPs are more prone to setback because they don't feed as smoothly. your the only person ive ever heard complain about this with regards to a particular caliber, and I'm pretty sure its not due to the wide bullet or .45s everywhere would unseat like mad. what brand are you using? are they all from the same lot?

Federal law enforcement agencies have issued bulletins in regards to this issue with .40 JHP rounds.

Trust me, I put thousands of rounds downrange every year, the .40 is FAR worse than the 9mm in this regard. It might also just be my Sig, but then again, I think Sig quality has gone right in the toilet.

[Pneumagger]

Federal law enforcement agencies have issued bulletins in regards to this issue with .40 JHP rounds.

Trust me, I put thousands of rounds downrange every year, the .40 is FAR worse than the 9mm in this regard. It might also just be my Sig, but then again, I think Sig quality has gone right in the toilet.

Odd how sigs have gone down in quality and nearly doubled in price since they started to become popular.
IMO, get a glock.


What Movie!?!

Sam Gerard: [Referring to his Glock] These things are so cool. They can shoot underwater, pour sand in them and they'll shoot. They shoot every time.
Sam Gerard: [looking at Royce's Gun] Got a back-up weapon?
John Royce: Never had the need.
Sam Gerard: Get one.
Sam Gerard: [hands back Royce's gun] Keep it in your suit unless I tell you to take it out. Get yourself a Glock and lose that nickel-plated sissy pistol.

[Spider-TW]

The 40 is not a well conceived modern handgun round.
...

Add to that;

Ammo companies now make +P and +P+ 40 cal ammo for law enforcement, which pushes the 40 back toward the standard 10mm load.

[Lohman446]

Add to that;

Ammo companies now make +P and +P+ 40 cal ammo for law enforcement, which pushes the 40 back toward the standard 10mm load.

Define the standard? The hot (original) 10MM far exceed what you can get into the 40 just because of space constraints.

The 40 can easily compete with the FBI "standard" downloaded ones. In fact thats the entire idea behind it.

Even Corbon doesn't hot load the 10MM at this point so calling the downloaded one standard would be correct. No purpose in shooting the downloaded ones, as the 40 S+W was designed to meet those specs in a shorter case.

Back to hyping the 357SIG as the ultimate modern handgun round (not counting that little 5.62?? thing).