I need to rant.

[Lohman446]

after sleeping on it.....I just see more and more how stupid a test designed to take the full 2 hours is.

Instead of grading on knowledge, your grading on the rate that students can process the test.....knowledge and % correct now come secondary to completeness. Put random crap down for a questions and your likely to get some points for a lot of questions, sit and think about a question and get the full point value and you will likely have many incomplete at the end.

Your buying into an academic fallacy that efficiency is not a primary concern. Knowledge is important, processing information correctly is important, but efficiency is also key.

Personally I would design every test to take the full time allotment or better.

Think of the ASVAB tests - I scored very high on them across the board, but the coding section I did not have a prayer of completing in the alloted time. Judging by my score nor did anyone else. This was judged both on efficiency and accuracy.

[Hilltop Customs]

Your buying into an academic fallacy that efficiency is not a primary concern. Knowledge is important, processing information correctly is important, but efficiency is also key.

Personally I would design every test to take the full time allotment or better.

Think of the ASVAB tests - I scored very high on them across the board, but the coding section I did not have a prayer of completing in the alloted time. Judging by my score nor did anyone else. This was judged both on efficiency and accuracy.

What about this then, since all aspects are important. Have the majority of the test be designed to be well within the time limit. and have a specific secion devoted to grading on efficieny, this section would be solely based on the "work" that a class is being taught.

Written response questions can vary highly on how fast you can write, I can type MUCH faster than I can write, not only that, revisions are nearly instantanious compared to erase or scratch out. If we are being graded on effiency, we should be allowed to make the test more efficient as we are taking it.

I asked the prof a specific qestion about effiency at the beginning of the test....I asked if I could make a description table on the first page, so instead of writing whole words in my models I could use single letters.....MUCH more efficient than writing the same words(5) 30+ times apiece. She told me specifically to write the words out. She made me less efficient. So....how does that test my efficiency when I saw an improvement, but was limited by the professor? I really did ask her this, kind of weird you mendioned efficiency, because I explained to her that it would be much more efficieny, and she just stared back at me with the glazed over dumbass professor look.

This method would have gave me more time to review accuracy, so in turn it would have increased both my efficiency and accuracy. Efficiency cannot be tested unless you give room for variation and improvements.

(excuse my spelling, Internet Explorer blah)

[Lohman446]

I have no doubt there are issues with any form and weighting a test properly seems to be an art form in itself. I just felt that it is important to point out that efficiency is a consideration.

I found in college that most my classes were not about knowledge but about testing to see if you would do the work or not, even if it was boring. I disdained it at the time. Come to find out in life its how most jobs are

[Hilltop Customs]

Thats why I'm hoping to work for a couple years, while designing/building up some IP. Then after I have built up some capital(yea I can dream...money disappears quick when its in my pockets) start up a freelance product development and implementation group.

I have a few engineers/art/business major friends that Ive discussed this with, and they are very interested. None of us want to be forced to work for someone else, we would much rather work with each other.

check out IDEO.com .....that is my ideal situation, but theres no way in hell I'm going through more school(they only even start to consider you during/after grad school). I would consider more schooling if it was more directly related to what I want to do, but undergrad has ruined education for me. Between curriculum and professors, I'm too disappointed to continue.

I love learning....I hate school

Oh and that test I was ranting about, it wasnt hard at all....if I had another 30 min, I would have scored ~95%. There were only 2 questions I was unsure of and they were only worth 6%(ones I had to go back to answer)

[Spider-TW]

You might try a different school. It can be a hard move, but good professors are hard to find. A good one can make things easy and actually interesting. I am still ticked (over 20 years!) about how I was shorted by worthless professors in two of my core classes in my favorite subject. I had more complicated classes with TAs that taught better than those two classes were taught. I considered changing my focus a couple of times after having professors that were so easy and interesting that the class just felt routine but I felt like I learned the material.

[SCpoloRicker]

My lawn.

Get off of it.

[Hilltop Customs]

You might try a different school. It can be a hard move, but good professors are hard to find. A good one can make things easy and actually interesting. I am still ticked (over 20 years!) about how I was shorted by worthless professors in two of my core classes in my favorite subject. I had more complicated classes with TAs that taught better than those two classes were taught. I considered changing my focus a couple of times after having professors that were so easy and interesting that the class just felt routine but I felt like I learned the material.

2 months to graduation, kind of late to change schools


I agree, good professors can make difficult subjects easy to understand....but bad professors can make simple subject impossible to understand, or they just provide bad information. Good professors make you want to learn, bad professors make you hate even thinking about going to their classes.

[Spider-TW]

2 months to graduation, kind of late to change schools


I agree, good professors can make difficult subjects easy to understand....but bad professors can make simple subject impossible to understand, or they just provide bad information. Good professors make you want to learn, bad professors make you hate even thinking about going to their classes.

There you go...post graduation is a perfect time to change schools

[teufelhunden]

might not get infinite time in life, but you can devote more time to what is pertinent to you.....

Not really. I just came out of a tax season that required 100 hour weeks to get returns done for high value investment partnerships (hedge funds, give or take)... there was a definite time limit (had to be done by 11:59 PM 10/15), efficiency was absolutely key (information for some of the returns was coming in as late as 10/12), and like it or not, I had to do it.

Sounds not dissimilar to your test, eh?

and that doesnt change the fact that giving/grading on a test which is not completable in the time frame is counterproductive. Kind of like a boss giving you a project which has no chance at being completed in the given time frame, then shortening it even more.

I've had crappy profs before, this one takes the cake thats why I felt the need to rant.

If you know it's not completable (please tell me you know how to take a test and size it up beforehand) then given your initial description it would seem you need to work on your testing strategy. Do the problems first if it looks long. They're worth more, you can always guess multiple choice if you have a time problem or quick BS some short answers and hope for some partial credit. Problems, not so much.

Yes. And how many jobs throw you out of a plane, and have you determine the velocity of a ball on a car while in movement around a corner on a tuesday.

IMO 50% of college test are not a test of what you understand as it is a teachers personal hurtle. I cannot tell you how many classes I crammed for test just to loose all of the information the day after. You get your real education after you get out of college.

The first part is asinine, if you feel that way about the subject you should reevaluate your career/major choices.

Your experience is likely pretty common, but if you're not just cramming and actually learning (doing the work and putting in the study time as required, not just for the test) you come out learning. And yeah, I know, sucks, I had my share of classes where I studied for the test and forgot it 4 seconds after I handed it in, but if you're taking major or other relevant courses it pays for you to learn it in school. I'm of the opinion that you learn how to apply a lot of the book knowledge you acquired in school when on the job, but to totally discount going to school other than for the degree is also foolish.

[maxama10]

My lawn.

Get off of it.

Fail troll is fail...

[Hilltop Customs]

Not really. I just came out of a tax season that required 100 hour weeks to get returns done for high value investment partnerships (hedge funds, give or take)... there was a definite time limit (had to be done by 11:59 PM 10/15), efficiency was absolutely key (information for some of the returns was coming in as late as 10/12), and like it or not, I had to do it.

Sounds not dissimilar to your test, eh?


If you know it's not completable (please tell me you know how to take a test and size it up beforehand) then given your initial description it would seem you need to work on your testing strategy. Do the problems first if it looks long. They're worth more, you can always guess multiple choice if you have a time problem or quick BS some short answers and hope for some partial credit. Problems, not so much.

Your experience is likely pretty common, but if you're not just cramming and actually learning (doing the work and putting in the study time as required, not just for the test) you come out learning. And yeah, I know, sucks, I had my share of classes where I studied for the test and forgot it 4 seconds after I handed it in, but if you're taking major or other relevant courses it pays for you to learn it in school. I'm of the opinion that you learn how to apply a lot of the book knowledge you acquired in school when on the job, but to totally discount going to school other than for the degree is also foolish.

Your first description is still really dissimilar to the test, efficiency was key, but the real determinate was still accuracy correct? Even if you had to put in 100 hour weeks, if it was required more time could be devoted to the returns by spreading the work over more people. Now if they expected you to accomplish that same amount of work in an 80 hour week....that would be a more similar situation. Thats pushing it past efficiency to a point of disregard for accuracy.

I know how to take a test, dont waste time with what you dont know until you know you have time to waste.....common sense. Hell, I use pen because it is faster to draw a line through a mistake than it is to erase. This test was not hard, it was too long.....plain and simple. It would be a completely different story if someone finished before time was called, but asking around today, some people didnt even get to start on the last question.

I know the material, I've done all the work for my groups labs, so I know how to develop the simulation/models by heart. The studying was just to prepare for the class based questions, which were a hell of a lot easier than I expected. BTW her classes consist of her showing a transparency and filling in a couple words per slide...thats why I've stopped attending, have too many projects to work on anyhow.

I'm interested to see the scores for this, because she has told us she wont give out any curve points at all.

[Lohman446]

Your first description is still really dissimilar to the test, efficiency was key, but the real determinate was still accuracy correct? Even if you had to put in 100 hour weeks, if it was required more time could be devoted to the returns by spreading the work over more people. Now if they expected you to accomplish that same amount of work in an 80 hour week....that would be a more similar situation. Thats pushing it past efficiency to a point of disregard for accuracy.
.

Its not really.

First off a test where noone completes it allows you to measure where everyone is at. If 50% of the people complete it it only tells you which 50% could but does not seperate them.

In the tax scenario both accuracy and efficiency are key, the same as a test. The company *could* hire more people to be more efficient, or they *could* hire a tax attorney to fix my mistakes and allow me less accuracy. At least in the example.

Frankly as an employer I expect a high degree of efficiency and a high degree of accuracy. If you cannot give me both one is no good. I cannot simply hire more people to get the same amount of work done, I do have to show a profit somewhere.

Not to say this test itself was fair, I did not take it. But some tests are intentionally designed to be unfinishable and are measuring a valid consideration when doing so.

[teufelhunden]

Your first description is still really dissimilar to the test, efficiency was key, but the real determinate was still accuracy correct? Even if you had to put in 100 hour weeks, if it was required more time could be devoted to the returns by spreading the work over more people. Now if they expected you to accomplish that same amount of work in an 80 hour week....that would be a more similar situation. Thats pushing it past efficiency to a point of disregard for accuracy.

I know how to take a test, dont waste time with what you dont know until you know you have time to waste.....common sense. Hell, I use pen because it is faster to draw a line through a mistake than it is to erase. This test was not hard, it was too long.....plain and simple. It would be a completely different story if someone finished before time was called, but asking around today, some people didnt even get to start on the last question.

I know the material, I've done all the work for my groups labs, so I know how to develop the simulation/models by heart. The studying was just to prepare for the class based questions, which were a hell of a lot easier than I expected. BTW her classes consist of her showing a transparency and filling in a couple words per slide...thats why I've stopped attending, have too many projects to work on anyhow.

I'm interested to see the scores for this, because she has told us she wont give out any curve points at all.

In my situation, the returns had to be both accurate and timely. IRS penalties for failing on either are pretty steep, given the specifics of the entities. And unfortunately, due to some heinous planning on the client's end, there weren't competent people available (which is why I was there in the first place, but I really can't go into it), so we had to make due with what we had. And I suppose I could've spent more time at the client's working on the returns, but that would have led a definite decrease in accuracy which would have, in turn, lead to a decrease in efficiency (returns take longer to review and more time to correct). So it is a fairly similar situation; insane amount of work to be done, finite time. Not trying to look like superman or whatever, but trying to illustrate that these situations due occur in the real world, more frequently than you think. You may well run into them when you're in the workforce; a client wants the plans or specs in 12 hours but there's 15 hours worth of work to be done and you're the only one available to do it, or something. Not in your field, so I can't really speak on it.


You said you didn't get to finish half a problem worth 25% of the total grade, no? Sounds like a problem that should've received attention up front.

I agree with Lohman; the partners at my firm expect our work to be of the highest quality we are capable of, given our varying levels of experience, and it needs to be done in a timely manner (which sometimes are very absurd deadlines, but such is life I guess).


In the end, it's only a test; at worst, you fail the class and have to retake it, or get a poor grade and choose to retake it. Yeah, if it's bad enough it may push back your graduation, but you're going to be working for 84 years after you graduate, what's another 4 months, ya know?

[Hilltop Customs]

oh I'm not planning on failing the class, this just means I'll have to try on the final....I was hoping to go into the final not caring, because its my only final, oh well.

I guess the main reason I made a huge deal about it is one of the concepts we go over in the class is the inconsistency of 100% utilization of resources, and then for our test the time is fully utilized. With 100% utilization, something as trivial as waiting for a professor to answer a question can produce large swings in throughput(this case # of questions completed, and points gained).

Its funny when you can use answers to questions on the test, to argue against the design of test itself.

[Lohman446]

oh I'm not planning on failing the class, this just means I'll have to try on the final....I was hoping to go into the final not caring, because its my only final, oh well.

I guess the main reason I made a huge deal about it is one of the concepts we go over in the class is the inconsistency of 100% utilization of resources, and then for our test the time is fully utilized. With 100% utilization, something as trivial as waiting for a professor to answer a question can produce large swings in throughput(this case # of questions completed, and points gained).

Its funny when you can use answers to questions on the test, to argue against the design of test itself.

I don't mean to keep arguing with you, and in fact I am inclined to agree with you. In the past you have always been reasonable, and you obviously have direct experience with the test that I do not.

That being said, ask anyone in large companies, or dealing with customers, how long getting an answer to a simple question can take. I often call a customer for a simple question and wait hours to get an answer. Hours that I have a vested interest in maintaining productivity.