National Healthcare

[bornl33t]

Anyone that thinks the goverment can run healthcare better then the private sector needs to jump into the river and stop poluting the gene pool.

[Lohman446]

How about rather than nationalizing the system we "check" the private industry and the insurance companies. For instance. I went in to see a surgeon about a routine procedure. I had already had (and paid for) all the ultrasound work, the diagnostics by my doctor and the diagnostics by the doctor reading the ultrasound. I "had" to have this consultation.

A) The estimate for the hospital bill (not including the $1000 for the surgeson + the $$ for the antistesiogligist (sp) for the three to four hour estimated time would have been $6000 to $8000 - thats $2000 an hour for a room and a couple nurses.

The consultation took under 15 minutes - the bill $280 - thats over $1000 an hour for chatting.

Somewhere, somehow, we need to check what the health insurance industry is charging as "reasonable" fees. If more Americans paid them out of pocket (rather the being ripped of by health insurance companies who "administer" payment or having Medicaid pay it with my tax dollars) we would be outraged over the costs of healthcare.

[bornl33t]

Agreed. But giving the gov the keys to the car is anti-smart.

Oh and while we are regulating things....lets dip into the attorneys pockets too. 250$ for a form letter with his signature stamped on it is ridiculous.

[Lohman446]

Agreed. But giving the gov the keys to the car is anti-smart.

Oh and while we are regulating things....lets dip into the attorneys pockets too. 250$ for a form letter with his signature stamped on it is ridiculous.

Handing the keys to a corporation of a government is illegal - nowhere is it allowed by the Federal government. The government handing out loans to distressed corporations is equally as dubious.

We should not be handing the keys to these industries to the government. The government should, however, be regulating these industries in ways that make sense, at least at a state level.

"Non-binding" sharehold votes. Forgive me, but wtf, NON-BINDING? Paying CEOs like they are wildely successful entreupeneurs (sp) when they have little vested interest in a company ESPECIALLY when said company is failing, is ridiculous. Allowing groups of stock holders who control votes because of mass quantities of stock (I'm thinking Corsair Capital and the NCC / PNC deal) is ridiculous and defeats the entire purpose of one share of stock = one vote and equal treatment.

There are problems, problems that cross state lines in many of these instances and need to be dealt with - but not as you said by simply letting the government take over.

And yes, I agree on lawyers. A secretary, a form letter, and a rubber stamp should not equal hundreds of dollars an hour.

[Thordic]

Lohman, there is a reason they charge so much. And it isn't entirely because they are gouging you.

It all boils down to tort refom, which I am a huge proponent of. Frivolous lawsuits are out of control, and insurance companies would rather settle for $200,000 than go to court and spent $1,000,000.

Where do the insurance companies get all this settlement money from? They raise malpractice insurance rates.

Who has to pay malpractice insurance? Doctors and hospitals.

So there is the first part. You are paying for all the sleazy lazy bastards who sue at any opportunity.

Insurance companies also nail doctors on the other end. Not only do they charge them huge amounts for their own insurance, but when the doctors attempt to file a claim to get paid themselves, the insurance companies decide they only want to pay 75%. Or 50%. Or they just say "We only pay X for that procedure, here you go".

So the doctors charge as much as they can get away with and hope to get the best return on it they can. If they bill a procedure for $10,000, they might really expect to get $5,000. But if they asked for $5,000, they'd only get $2,500.

I'm not going to say that insurance companies would be more generous if they didn't have all these lawsuits to deal with, but it would take away a lot of their excuses and give them an incentive to review their own processes.

IMO, it all boils down to our broken legal system. Unfortunately, trial lawyers not only have an extremely powerful lobbying presence, but a huge percentage of our politicians are ex-laywers themselves.

But, that being said, I don't think the government would do any better, and would probably just make things worse.

Good read for those in favor of government healthcare (read the whole article):

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig5/johnsson1.html

[Lohman446]

I don't entirely disagree - though I think to some degree its an excuse. When I walk into a hospital and the staircase cost more than my house several times over I think there are issues. When hospital administrators are demanding (and getting) outlandish comp. packages there is an issue. Yes, the insurance companies and the tort system (more like a lottery than a legal system) are part of the problem, but not all of it.

Lohman, there is a reason they charge so much. And it isn't entirely because they are gouging you.

It all boils down to tort refom, which I am a huge proponent of. Frivolous lawsuits are out of control, and insurance companies would rather settle for $200,000 than go to court and spent $1,000,000.

Where do the insurance companies get all this settlement money from? They raise malpractice insurance rates.

Who has to pay malpractice insurance? Doctors and hospitals.

So there is the first part. You are paying for all the sleazy lazy bastards who sue at any opportunity.

Insurance companies also nail doctors on the other end. Not only do they charge them huge amounts for their own insurance, but when the doctors attempt to file a claim to get paid themselves, the insurance companies decide they only want to pay 75%. Or 50%. Or they just say "We only pay X for that procedure, here you go".

So the doctors charge as much as they can get away with and hope to get the best return on it they can. If they bill a procedure for $10,000, they might really expect to get $5,000. But if they asked for $5,000, they'd only get $2,500.

I'm not going to say that insurance companies would be more generous if they didn't have all these lawsuits to deal with, but it would take away a lot of their excuses and give them an incentive to review their own processes.

IMO, it all boils down to our broken legal system. Unfortunately, trial lawyers not only have an extremely powerful lobbying presence, but a huge percentage of our politicians are ex-laywers themselves.

But, that being said, I don't think the government would do any better, and would probably just make things worse.

Good read for those in favor of government healthcare (read the whole article):

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig5/johnsson1.html

[Thordic]

To your point, Lohman, if you have tort reform, then the hospitals start to run out of excuses.

[punkncat]

That is just a tip of that whole iceburg Thordic, but I could not agree more.

This litigous society we are a part of feels there is no personal responsibility for anything, nor wants to admit that sometimes **** just happens. It always has to be someone else's fault and worth making a lawyer money for.

[vf-xx]

That is just a tip of that whole iceburg Thordic, but I could not agree more.

This litigous society we are a part of feels there is no personal responsibility for anything, nor wants to admit that sometimes **** just happens. It always has to be someone else's fault and worth making a lawyer money for.

Personally I think that's the key there. A lack of personal responsibility on a widespread level. That and a lack of an integrated community. The internet has done wonders for communicating with people who share interests, but they don't really force you to learn to get along with your neighbor....

[chafnerjr]

Being against gov. control of any private sector (though some regulations is obviously needed in places) I am only going to jump in and say one thing... I want my doctors to be the highest paid in the world! How else are you going to get some bookworm schlub to spend 8+ years in college to take one of the most challenging/gross/boring and risky (see tort reform) jobs in the world.

Now with that said their costs due to ins. are just insane. If the gov. takes this over we'll NEVER get it fixed. The last thing I want is the gov deciding when to stop some mothers breast cancer medicine because they have determined that they can't cover her quality of life issues. (just see how the like it in the UK) only worrying about how much campaign $$$ they will get from viagra to get their pills covered under the gov. plan, but not someone's heart medicine.

What happened to " of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth..."... now it's "to the people, from the people, for the greater good." If you are reading this and don't understand the difference then you should check your moral compass.

[Lohman446]

Being against gov. control of any private sector (though some regulations is obviously needed in places) I am only going to jump in and say one thing... I want my doctors to be the highest paid in the world! How else are you going to get some bookworm schlub to spend 8+ years in college to take one of the most challenging/gross/boring and risky (see tort reform) jobs in the world.

Highest paid does not always mean the best. I want the doctor who knows what they are doing and are doing it because they want to, not simply as a means to wealth. The one who sees it as challenging and interesting rather than boring and gross. I have no problem with reasonable compensation - however there has to be some mark of reasonable. In todays economy the poor are not getting poorer necessarily, but rich has a whole new meaning when 100 million dollars is a "common" salary for people who have ZERO entrepenurial investment in what htey are doing.

[maniacmechanic]

Highest paid does not always mean the best. I want the doctor who knows what they are doing and are doing it because they want to, not simply as a means to wealth. The one who sees it as challenging and interesting rather than boring and gross. I have no problem with reasonable compensation - however there has to be some mark of reasonable. In todays economy the poor are not getting poorer necessarily, but rich has a whole new meaning when 100 million dollars is a "common" salary for people who have ZERO entrepenurial investment in what htey are doing.

One thing about doctors now days is " how do you pronounce thier name "
A lot of doctor are " trained " overseas then somehow end up living in the states
Doctors have decided that being a " specialist " is the way to go , only one set of problems & they can charge more because they are " specialist's "

On Tort reform just try it , ALL of our politicans are lawyers
Lawyers are bottom dwellers , until you need a criminal one
4 years ago my wife & I had a 82 year old woman make a left hand turn in front of my 98 roadking ,Lawsuit still in limbo , i'm ok but my wifes neck will never be the same & she is not a canidate for surgury , so she lives with pain every day , I could go on & on but won't

[drg]

Anyone that thinks the goverment can run healthcare better then the private sector needs to jump into the river and stop poluting the gene pool.

Good thing no one is proposing that. Regardless, the government actually does a pretty good job with healthcare, it has far, far lower overhead than the private sector because it doesn't grub money, and care is not significantly compromised.

This is from firsthand experience; a close family member is medicare-eligible and I pay far, far, FAR and away more for my coverage and care, but it is not better in any way (in fact we go to many of the same doctors).

Obvious knee-jerk conservatism is obvious.

[bornl33t]

I lived in Europe for 14 years so I am qualified to say that national health care (aka socialized medicine) sucks beyond what Americans can imagine. If the government takes health insurance into it's own hands it will put private providers out of business then they can do what ever they please and we will foot the bill.

Some very wise men in our country say that once the process has started there it no way to reverse it and I agree with them.

[drg]

I lived in Europe for 14 years so I am qualified to say that national health care (aka socialized medicine) sucks beyond what Americans can imagine. If the government takes health insurance into it's own hands it will put private providers out of business then they can do what ever they please and we will foot the bill.

Again, no one is proposing that. Straw man FTL.

Obvious fallacy is obvious.

We'll let the appeal to authority fallacy slide.