Off Market Research

[Swampy]

Honestly I know there are forums out there that pretain to Landscaping, Marketing, etc but I'd like to hear more raw data.

I'd like to jump my numbers for the business to break into the 1/2 million plus bracket. Also the accountant is warning me for next year taxes towards if I don't claim a major purchase, I'm going through the roof (Thanks Wisconsin).

1. Going green! I haven't jumped on the wagon but a major account that is about 16% of the gross is leaning towards it. I run so called "Dirty" Diesels, low or pre emission diesel equipment. I have a ASE and diesel tech employeed, most of my summer equipment is ready to run Bio-Diesel or E80 gas. Making the switch is bad to me, more labor in shop hours for draining tanks in fall, none of the trucks are set up for vegi fuel (and from what I heard my 7.3's lock up with vegi fuel) I'm pretty sure I'm going with this opition but as a resident do you prefer a greener landscaper for a added price? <---I can take a big tax credit for this.

2. Going back to a major purchase. I believe it's time for my company to jump up to a big truck. Right now I run a single F550 (1 1/2ton) truck. She has been my work horse, slave driver, all around "pull me out of a bind" truck (Plus I got to make out on it since I dropped a new Tranny in it). I'm thinking I can jump into a used Municpal spec'ed truck, I have a 32ft Felling's trailer, but also a Deere Loader Backhoe for around 80K. I ask Condo Residental's this do mind seeing a large truck on site for regualar lawn mainteniance and/or a larger machine parked for snow removal?

[SCpoloRicker]

Condo/townhome owner here. I don't have much of a say in who the HOA contracts for landscaping. I'd probably prefer non-intrusive workers and trucks, but again, not my call beyond a single vote.

I'd target HOAs from a pricing perspective - they're only going to be interested in that anyways.

[Swampy]

Condo/townhome owner here. I don't have much of a say in who the HOA contracts for landscaping. I'd probably prefer non-intrusive workers and trucks, but again, not my call beyond a single vote.

I'd target HOAs from a pricing perspective - they're only going to be interested in that anyways.

Which I do and think about constantly. The unfortuante thing about HOA's it is almost nearly impossible to please everyone. Thus is why contractors like to deal more with the Property Management company vs. the indiviual resident's of HOA's, sometimes resident's cut out or limit a Property Management company and consider themselves as a General Contractor or have a Board, which honestly your opinion or vote could go along way vs. talking to a contractor or employee directly to end up getting "You have to talk to the board/management company so they can issue a work ticket"

My HOA's that I service either cut out the Management company, or limit it so much that they management company can recommend certain contractors (luckly I'm on the good side of Management companys even though its tuff to get paid on time sometimes).

Pricing and having non-intrusive personal go hand in hand together, many Condo owners look at price or cost somewhere when they evaluate us along with other things (quality, time from start to end, friendliness of staff). I could lower overall cost to cut the grass easily by using bigger equipment, granted it doesn't leave a very good cut vs. multiple smaller machines. But it does drop the ammount of time on site and the number of personal on site which drops the operating cost of the work being preformed.

Might be talking to far ahead of myself. Given a situation "I can mow your backyard in 1hour with a smaller machine or use 1 large machine and be done in 15min" thus dropping cost and being intrusive as we would be out of "hair" faster.

[sjrtk]

That is a very good question that i can't answer. But I think you should be able to get a tax credit for running bio-diesel trucks (of course it doesn't have the shelf life of regular fuel) the e85 gas no deal on. As far as the 7.3 goes i've never seen them lock up on veggi if you do the conversion right (second tank heated by coolant And supplied fuel is 100+ degrees to engine start and stop on regular diesel) it will gum up the injectors or pumps and filters if it cools i.e. shutting off on veggi. Look at the stuff Grease Car sells it wont shut down on veggi and has manual and automatic mode for the switch.

[Swampy]

That is a very good question that i can't answer. But I think you should be able to get a tax credit for running bio-diesel trucks (of course it doesn't have the shelf life of regular fuel) the e85 gas no deal on. As far as the 7.3 goes i've never seen them lock up on veggi if you do the conversion right (second tank heated by coolant And supplied fuel is 100+ degrees to engine start and stop on regular diesel) it will gum up the injectors or pumps and filters if it cools i.e. shutting off on veggi. Look at the stuff Grease Car sells it wont shut down on veggi and has manual and automatic mode for the switch.

That might work. Summertime run vegi, winter run straight diesel. I don't want to sound like I'm shooting down your idea but I have employee's, thus is why on the F550 I've ran threw a engine(washed out 2 cyclinders, short blocked it, then threw a rod), now on a full crate motor, 2 turbo's (now twin turbo'd) , front and rear end diff's, and recently a transmission. Not all their fault is a FriMonday truck from Ford . While your opition of running a second tank won't work, the F550 is fitted with central hydralics systme with a 10 gal reservoir on the driver side, in the middle is the scissors lift, passenger side has a 40gal aftermarket fuel tank (that little ford 19gal tank wasn't cutting it)

Right now I run off road diesel in the mowers, skidsteer's, and the tractors. Which the over the road diesel tax is elimated since they are agri equipment or not on road use. Even though my big mower, Toro 580D, does get roaded between some accounts. Now like I said most of the diesel equipment will run bio diesel such as my Kubota's, Kohler, Cummins, and Deutz's will run. But the older Mistubishi's, CAT, Peugeot, Ford New Holland, and Navistar's won't. As a business sense is it worth it having 3 open diesel fuel type accounts, plus a open 2 type gasoline account?

I just read a little bit about this opition of changing gas powered over to propane powered. I do run 5 pieces of equipment that are over the 20hp mark which could make a difference. Propane being far more efficent per hour than gasoline. But I don't think there is a credit yet for it. Forklift guys, how do you like running a propane powerd vs other powered?

[sjrtk]

To bad about the veggi didn't think about the lay out of the hydraulics (and the 19 gal. ford tank doesn't cut it driving off the lot). My brothers dump had twin rams with room for a 35 gallon tank along with the hyrdo equipment.

[leloup]

As far as the "should you go green, will people pay for it?" conundrum, may I ask who your target market is? What is the income level of the areas you currently service, and what is the public opinion of the people in WI (that is where you are from, right?) about the environment? In Oregon, if you were a green landscaper in the affluent Portland area (super enviromental and very yuppie) you would do very well. I think if you want to target an upscale market, green is the way to go.

As far as other "major purchases", do you have a back hoe? Maybe a new truck? What are your needs as a company? I don't really know your business, otherwise I could use some analytical tools on it. Tell you what though, if you can pm or email me a detailed description of your business and operations, I will have my entreprenuership students try and figure out some possible solutions (though some of them are not the sharpest tools in the shed, I can wager we can come up with something).

[Swampy]

Sorry for the late reply I was busy moving to a new apartment. Plus had to wait to get the internet moved over. But it sounds like your brother runs a bigger rack dump then my F550. I'm just running with a single ram scissors lift on a 11ft flatbed dump, I had posts and a bulkhead welded on. I wasn't going to drop the coin for a actually dump bed such as a mason dump. Though the next F450 or F550 will be a mason dump, So will my next F350 will have a landscape body which will have a electric over hydralic lift on it.

As far as the "should you go green, will people pay for it?" conundrum, may I ask who your target market is? What is the income level of the areas you currently service, and what is the public opinion of the people in WI (that is where you are from, right?) about the environment? In Oregon, if you were a green landscaper in the affluent Portland area (super enviromental and very yuppie) you would do very well. I think if you want to target an upscale market, green is the way to go.

As far as other "major purchases", do you have a back hoe? Maybe a new truck? What are your needs as a company? I don't really know your business, otherwise I could use some analytical tools on it. Tell you what though, if you can pm or email me a detailed description of your business and operations, I will have my entreprenuership students try and figure out some possible solutions (though some of them are not the sharpest tools in the shed, I can wager we can come up with something).

I've have some interest from a few costumers, to move towards "going green". Reduce my chemical applications of synthetic lawn fertilizers (liquid) and multiple applications of a solid organic fertilizers such as Milgoranite. That is my current situation. I really don't like it, as one of my major spraying units will now just sit around but increase the use of spreaders (thus a increase of labor hours). I know it sounds werid increasing the number of applications actually decreases my profit in this sector and that hurts because I consider this service a up sell from lawn mowing (which I make very little profit off of).

My target market has been for the spring, summer, and fall months 80% residental and 20% commerical/municipal. Snow and ice season is more towards 70% commerical and 30% residental. The average income of a indiviual homeowner is around 40-50K per year, with combined income of around 80-90K.

I'd say in WI we have a mix, while not a major concern to some but its still a plus. I'm not saying people want it done as cheaply. My work and employee's work sells itself. I'm looking at going green not to just improve my image but this past quarter I had to pay out a $10,500 tax bill. I look at going green to add on to the company to say "green company" but as well as the tax credits that would lower the quarterly taxes.

I don't currently own a true backhoe, Currently running a John Deere Agriculture tractor with a 3point back hoe attachment, While it works, but age/high hours/chemicals has attacked her it the point that in winter time use of a starting aid in getting to be common use (which is a with diesel engines). I'll end up keeping the tractor around, might just rebuild her or use as a shop loader but its going to be "backlined". I've acquired 14 different attachments that I use for the tractor which is used for lawn maintanence, construction/renovation's, and snow/ice control. On the construction side of my operation I currently run 3 skid loaders (New Holland Lx865, LS180.5, and a Bobcat S250 w/VTS tracks). In operation these four machines are the bulk of my construction side of the company, along with the snow removal operation. For snow/ice this year I winter leased a CAT 914IT Articulating wheel loader at a cost of 2K per month. Could I just go out a purchase a ariculating loader for next year, maybe but honestly it wouldn't get much use other that winter or loading trucks.

Thus is why I'm turning towards a loader backhoe, to my company it would be more cost effective for the constuction season digging footings for retaining walls, planting trees, handling both material and outcropping stone. Snow/ice season the machine would be clearing snow and stacking snow. Buying new would set me back around $110,000 that can be taken over 7 years worth of taxes. I have a demo scheduled for a CAT coming up during the next snow event. Problem I don't have the truck or trailer to pull this monster around. Looking for a truck right now it's time to buy, I was on trucktrader and found a 3 year old International 4700 single wheel box truck for $38K, I'd need to cut about 6ft off the frame to shorten it up and find a dump body and plow for it, or a bigger truck a Peterbilt single wheel dump with a 11ft plow at the dealer for $85,000. Trailers agian a dime a dozen I can find them as cheap as $2,000 off craigslist.

leloup to your students. A few words of advice to young entrepenuers. "Sometimes you have to spend money to make money." Right now its a buyers market for equipment and tools. When the economy picks up you might have $10,000 for a equipment purchase, if you sit on it and wait for better times. Your going to shoot yourself in the foot, because when this slump picks up, the inflation rate is going to sky rocket, and your 10 grand isn't going to amount to much.

A little background info for your students. My company is a Limited Liability Company, which they should know operates like a Corparation but is handled like a Sole Propiertership. I started out 8 years ago with a partner, he ran the lawn maintanence divison and I ran the landscaping installation division. I've since bought him out after long arguing about him not pulling his wieght, he has since just recently purchased a turn key operation. Every year since I bought him out I've been adding services. Such as Snow/Ice control, Spring and Fall clean ups, Shrub trimming and small tree pruning, chemical applications, brush cutting, rough cutting. This year I'm adding another shift along with the service, parking lot clean ups in spring here when the snow melts. Last year I got offered by a factory that I maintain to sweep up their parking lot, rented a broom bucket combo for a skid loader and did it at night when the lot was empty. At the end of the season the place I rented the broom and bucket combo from had the unit up for sale I put in a resonable offer in, now I have another job that one of my skid loaders can do between snow/ice season and the constuction season. This should keep a few employees happy as I already have 4 contracts signed to preform this service.

Generally we are a Landscape design/bid/build type company. The lawn maintanence is there to pay the bills, while I do profit from it, its not as profitable as the construction end of the business. It only makes up about 22% of my total revenue of a $450K this past year. Its enough to cover the over head, and pay some of the employees wages. I've had some jobs actually come over to the constuction side that were from my lawn maintanence side. The problem with lawn maintanence is that everybody does or can do it, fuel cost goes up, the amount of fuel consumed for day to day operation, equipment cost can range from a few hunderd bucks to over $100,000 for a lawn mower. plus the cost has to be marketable to homeowners. In my market for lawn mowing I stay towards the High dollar residental homes, homes up for sale, homes owned by the banks, Apartment complexs, and HOA's are the bulk of the mowing accounts, while developers, banks, factories, schools, and warehouses consist of commericals/municpal accounts. The construction side is the same way. Why? Because there is a lot homes out there then businesses. Previous years we reach to the high numbers by doing new installs or cookie cutter landscapes 6K-15K, and bigger jobs up to 50K range. We would leave those jobs that someone wanted a few plants installed up to someone else as they weren't worth the time to complete. This past year we changed the focus to accepting those smaller jobs, which a single employee could be dispatched in the morning with schedule full of work orders, and a revoling door of credit from my landscape supplier and nursey. Though we did end up doing 3 big jobs this past year to and my biggest, furthest away to date in northern WI at around 78K, I got that one from a lawn maintanence costumer actually.

[Lohman446]

However...

*IF* you are running non road fuel in a road vehicle you are responsible for the taxes associated with road fuel (every gallon has X amount of tax on it) and can get in big time trouble for not claiming it if caught. Since you are talking of taking tax credits for it I would assume that the agencies share information.

[Swampy]

Actually if your running off road diesel on a road in your trucki, you get fines. Exception to farm equipment moving field to field. I have a 2000gal tank for off road diesel that is used for filling mowers, tractors, and skidsteers throughout the year. I've been trying to find a smaller tank for Gasoline, right now I just fill them off a 1/2 transfer tank.

[Lohman446]

I try to encourage people to get around buying the correct fuel(s) for there vehicles. It makes me a lot of money

[leloup]

Thanks, swampy, you provided a lot of good information. I will definetly get them started in about a week or two on this, once I compile some of it into an easy to read format (I hate to say it, but this is me "least smart" entrepreneurship class so far). We are covering forms of ownership next week, and then a little bit about copyright/tradmark/patent stuff, and then we can get to this project.

Just a quick assessment: it sounds like you are between going green and a loader back hoe. What do you think would give you the greatest opportunity for growth? If the backhoe will help out with more commercial, and if you get most of your revenue from that, go with the hoe (that rhymes...and sounds bad). If the majority of your revenue is from residential, the going green might give you that boost. The good news is that you have many opportunities to better your business. Maybe go with equipment this year, and then green the next?

[Swampy]

Lohman: You are correct sir! though you can fill up with over the road diesel and just claim it as non road use later but I find running two types of diesel (off road which has a red dye to added and over the road diesel) easier to keep track of cause of my bulk tank. Though I got to say to how many companies that I know and see still that don't prebuy fuel or still pay off a per use type of system. I bulk order on road diesel and gasoline for the trucks at the beginning of the landscaping season which last's me into the snow/ice season.

leloup: I can't wait to hear what you and your students come up with, seriously its always good to hear what the younger generation have to say and what they think. With the "going green" and the backhoe issue both are a plus to the business, at least I believe.

Call it I'm stuck between iraq and a hard place. Going green doesn't have a big following right now, I know there is a compettor in the area that mow's with Black and Decker battery/electric mower they picked up from Home Depot and charge it higher rate. Granted those mowers are not ment for commerical use, but it appears that its gaining interest. (From just a visual aspect one crew is set up with the mowers, its a 05 F250 with a 8ft enclosed trailer). While I wouldn't technically be the leader in the area for going green, but there is a small market for it. I'll wait on this and see what kind of calls I'll get this year on it. I was talking to a few dealers about this, their manufactures are going to start pushing the Propane powered mowers and aftermarket kits this year and I do have a older "backlined/reserve" gas powered mower that can be converted over to propane I might try out later on the season. Big thing I'm looking at it is that supposably propane powered is not only cleaner its suppose to have a longer life expectinacy to the mower from the cleaner burning fuel, and higher fuel economy with out the loss of rpm's or horsepower. Its suppose to beat out diesel powered equipment to, which I really don't understand cause my diesel mowers really don't bog down in tall and/or wet grass.

The Backhoe route: I need to replace/shore up the old Deere. It just doesn't have the power it use to a few years ago. Give it as well, projected the economy is suppose to pick up this year which will mean more landscape jobs. Also with this piece of equipment/crew setup I can enter into other fields down the road I.E. Excavation, Spetic and Sewer lateral installation not only that but fortify my position in other fields such as retaining wall construction, landscaping, landscape renovation, Finish grading, and snow/ice management. I have a demo scheduled for a loader backhoe coming up this next storm so lets see what happens. The other advantage of this crew is the truck itself as well. Not just for the construction side, but right now my F550 isn't all that bad at now 10yrs old (with only 68,000 on the truck and about 10,000 on the engine) but its strains itself uphill pulling a 32ft trailer loaded with my big mowing crew close to 9,000lbs with out the trailer and truck to boot. Plus the juicer brakes on the truck make it nice rollercoaster ride down hill trashing the trailer brakes in the process.

I'm now leaning towards the backhoe opition from a safety aspect, I don't need a foreman losing control of a truck and taking out a bus full of preschooler's as well as I can expand my business horizon.

Sorry for sounding so distant but on Friday I was served papers for a slip and fall incident from a snow account that I plow but do not salt, contract states so. But I have court to prepare for plus get paperwork in order for the lawyer.

[maniacmechanic]

Sorry for sounding so distant but on Friday I was served papers for a slip and fall incident from a snow account that I plow but do not salt, contract states so. But I have court to prepare for plus get paperwork in order for the lawyer.

so you get sued for following the orders your employer ( under contract to ) gave you , I do so hope your employer is also getting sued , all because someone doesn't know how to walk , the tort system in this country stinks , I do hope the judge laughs & throws it out

[sjrtk]

Good Luck with the unfortunate business ahead of you.

Sounds like the back hoe is looking to be the option to look at due to the rest of you business, the propane for the mowers does prolong the service life and interval of equipment less stress full on parts and cleaner burning.