Lord and Saviour ?

[Lohman446]

all religion* teaches that we should have faith in something unprovable. this is evil, .

Unproveable by whom? I can't personally prove that what I learned about molecular science is true. Do I have to be able to prove it directly or can I take someone elses word for it?

I have faith in the overall goodness of mankind. I can't prove it. Does this make that faith evil?

[cockerpunk]

And you accused me of circular logic? No doubt. If someone wants to use a gun to kill someone a gun is required as well.

im sorry, can you think of a naturalistic reason to kill and persecute intellectuals and women? it typically takes religion to do that.

[Lohman446]

im sorry, can you think of a naturalistic reason to kill and persecute intellectuals and women? it typically takes religion to do that.

Oh. So its not been done outside of religion? I didn't realize the Soviet persecutions were religiously based

[cockerpunk]

Oh. So its not been done outside of religion? I didn't realize the Soviet persecutions were religiously based

the soviets didn't persecute women and intellectuals for being women and intellectuals, they punished ANYONE who dared defy there politics. kinda a big difference. also, still not a justified reason to persecute anyone, so not a naturalistic reason to persecute women and intellectuals.

[Lohman446]

the soviets didn't persecute women and intellectuals for being women and intellectuals, they punished ANYONE who dared defy there politics. kinda a big difference. also, still not a justified reason to persecute anyone, so not a naturalistic reason to persecute women and intellectuals.

So persecution is evil - I can agree with this one.

[cockerpunk]

So persecution is evil - I can agree with this one.

and you didn't need religion to come to that conclusion. and yet, persecution in this country, in every form has come from religion. as has persecution of the jews, muslims, women, intellectuals, Catholics .....

yet another case of we can make the moral decision on our own, without religion, and the best way to subvert that moral conclusion is with religion .... so why even bother with religion at all? why not skip a step?

[Lohman446]

and you didn't need religion to come to that conclusion. and yet, persecution in this country, in every form has come from religion.

So persecution in this country has not occured outside of religion? Religion was used to justify slavery (I never denied it was a tool) and it was used by others to fight it (two sided). However slavery was an economic decision not one based on religion No. It did not come from religion.

Is my statement that persecution is wrong lessened if I use a biblical quote to strengthen it? What if I use a quote of John Stewart Mill?

[dahoeb]

Countries that enforced atheism or tightly regulate any form of religion:

North Korea
China during the "Cultural Revolution," rules relaxed in the 70's-80's.
Cambodia
Vietnam
USSR
Cuba (probably the most religiously tolerant of all the countries on the list)
Czechoslovakia

Over a 70 year period, these shining examples of non-religious states don't seem like a big step up from any state with widespread religion and the sciences certainly weren't advanced any faster.

Atrocities, war, genocide, mass roundups, brain washing etc all still occurred and were tolerated by their onlooking citizenry.

Lesson: The problem is with the human condition, not religion (generally speaking).

[Flatliner333]

cockerpunk...simple questions ?

Do you believe in : (yes or no )

God ?
Jesus ?
Heaven ?
Angels ?
Miracles ?
Devine intervention ?

The Devil ?
The Antichrist ?
Demons ?
Hell ?

[cockerpunk]

Countries that enforced atheism or tightly regulate any form of religion:

North Korea
China during the "Cultural Revolution," rules relaxed in the 70's-80's.
Cambodia
Vietnam
USSR
Cuba (probably the most religiously tolerant of all the countries on the list)
Czechoslovakia

Over a 70 year period, these shining examples of non-religious states don't seem like a big step up from any state with widespread religion and the sciences certainly weren't advanced any faster.

Atrocities, war, genocide, mass roundups, brain washing etc all still occurred and were tolerated by their onlooking citizenry.

Lesson: The problem is with the human condition, not religion (generally speaking).

mandating any religion is the problem. you cannot mandate atheism any more then you can mandate religion, because you cannot regulate what people think and believe. these are not examples of what an atheist state would look like, they are examples of totalitarian dictatorships look like. you can tell because religious totalitarian dictatorships are the exact same way.

in fact, most of them on that list do have a religion - state or leader worship.

no where have i advocated or supported the idea of religious controls, or mandated atheism. in fact, the exactly opposite, a faith in humanity, that we can trust ourselves to make good decisions, and have the freedom to make those decisions.

Do you believe in : (yes or no )

God ?
Jesus ?
Heaven ?
Angels ?
Miracles ?
Devine intervention ?

The Devil ?
The Antichrist ?
Demons ?
Hell ?

none of the above.

[cockerpunk]

So persecution in this country has not occured outside of religion? Religion was used to justify slavery (I never denied it was a tool) and it was used by others to fight it (two sided). However slavery was an economic decision not one based on religion No. It did not come from religion.

Is my statement that persecution is wrong lessened if I use a biblical quote to strengthen it? What if I use a quote of John Stewart Mill?

since i do not recognize authority as the basis of an argument, it is the logic, not the source that is important.

[Lohman446]

since i do not recognize authority as the basis of an argument, it is the logic, not the source that is important.

So if I use an argument based on atheism to hunt down and kill the Jesuits (or others who practice religion as was done in China) by your argument atheism would be evil?

I have arrived at a beleif in religion through the use of logic and reason - as did Channing in the late 1800s. I do not see it as evil.

[MANN]

none of the above.

I too am an engineer, and I feel that is the reason for most of your beliefs (I am man enough to admit that engineers are defiantly an "off breed"). You don't have to change your stance today. I don't expect you to. All I would suggest is that you keep an open mind about everything. One day you will have a child, and one day you will more than likely change your stance after experiencing a miracle, or some other unexplainable action.

[cockerpunk]

I too am an engineer, and I feel that is the reason for most of your beliefs (I am man enough to admit that engineers are defiantly an "off breed"). You don't have to change your stance today. I don't expect you to. All I would suggest is that you keep an open mind about everything. One day you will have a child, and one day you will more than likely change your stance after experiencing a miracle, or some other unexplainable action.

i do have an open mind. and i would say i am an engineer because of my baser beliefs, those we are discussing here, not the other way around. a strict adherence to logic, data, and empiricism as a foundation to solve humanities problems. making up **** and believing in things for which you have no good reason to, doesn't help humanity solve its problems, and certainly does not help in engineering. that is the very definition of a poor engineer.

subjective experience is not proof of anything, as an engineer you should know that best of all.

why would having a child change my opinion? it won't but im curious why you'd think that.

[cockerpunk]

So if I use an argument based on atheism to hunt down and kill the Jesuits (or others who practice religion as was done in China) by your argument atheism would be evil?

I have arrived at a beleif in religion through the use of logic and reason - as did Channing in the late 1800s. I do not see it as evil.

atheism is merely the belief that there is no god, there is no other dogma, ritual, or agreed upon way to live, like there is with religion. how does one get from there is no god, to hunting people down and killing them?

those middle steps ... those would be the real problem, not the disbelief in a deity. whereas religion is not just the belief in a god, it comes with a whole list of dos, don't and who to kills.