So...How's it going?

[luke]

I don't believe that it's just this section that keeps folks away from this board.

Like I've said several times, friendly corner "was the last straw for many" but it started years before that. The problem was the lack of enforcement of the basic rules. The problem here in friendly corner goes back a decade at least. That said the problem did not start in FC, it all started after Tom retired.

You say there's a lot of interesting things happening in the AO community but where and what?

When I say AO community, I'm talking about former members that left here. The AO community is spread out mostly on facebook and MC Brown. There are offerings of custom markers, parts, new offerings in mods, techs without a good home due to facebook nonsense, at least one machinist I know of that lost his account on FB for no good reason. He's an assent to the community but really doesn't have a good home to operate from.

If you believe that's the case you could probably start a different forum and have traffic over there because it's not happening here.

Why should I start a new forum when this one is dead but could be brought back with just a little support from the moderators. All I'm asking of them is to enforce rules that have been neglected since Tom left. It's that simple.

I have an idea but will not move on it until I have a conversation with someone that can enforce the rules. That's all I'm asking for.

This forum isn't particularly stable and seems to use a lot of archaic technology that is barely maintained, which isn't too surprising given that its probably ran by unpaid volunteers. Kudos to the guys who keep this forum alive though. You have a vested interest in ensuring paintball players get exposure to automags and their parts but are you helping to maintain and drive traffic to this site?

Maybe, but it worked then and it works now. Plus Bunny did a bang up job with the current changes.

Facebook is not all its cracked up to be, it's very difficult to run projects there due to how the algorithms work. You post something and it doesn't even show up in your own feed, you have to go look for it them turn on each comment to read it. Plus you have to re-read an entire post to find new comments. It's an ignorant way to run a forum.

MCB has a far larger user base of folks doing a variety of different things to markers. MCB certainly lends itself to more R&D work which is what is going to drive people to come on the site and post. If you're selling a marker now why not just go on facebook and looking at the posts?

MCB is just TOO LARGE, to many forums and bst is lumped in with everyone else, its not Automag spesific, I've never done business there, never will.

Don't take this the wrong way. I like your parts and I think you do a great job but if you want traffic on a site you have to drive innovation and custom milling isn't going to cut it at this point. Design a custom circuit board that can fit in an automag and open source the project, design a new X valve (original RT style) that will allow the mag to be macroless, figure out a better method making the Level 10 not be so finicky.

This is not just about my business, my business is doing great. This is about community, this is about other builders, designers, manufacturers, techs, guys offering printing services, etc. It's about Tuna and XMT here on AO without traffic. XMT cant even fill a preorder, but my guess he could if this place was brought back from the dead. I want to see him complete those projects, the community needs him and we need Tuna, we need everyone that contributes under one roof. This is about me seeing the need to get everyone back under on roof where Automags is the focus. Like it was when Tom was here.

I'm not an electronics guy, I have tried for many years to purchase the rights to the UTB, but Scenario Dreams disappeared. I've had a dozen builders try to create a new UTB but in the end they all walk away from the project. I have an electronic frame ready for production, just need UTB boards.

I make my own LcX valve. To go truly hoseless it's a complete remake of most of the parts involved. A project I spent a great deal of time looking into and decided I dont want to do it. I'm closer to retirement than not. What you mentioned can be done but I'm not your huckleberry.

[CitsejaMkraDehT]

Like I've said several times, friendly corner "was the last straw for many" but it started years before that. The problem was the lack of enforcement of the basic rules. The problem here in friendly corner goes back a decade at least. That said the problem did not start in FC, it all started after Tom retired.

Tom retired how many years ago? Automags.org dwindled because of many reasons. Lack of technical discussions, lack of R&D, lack of desire to own an automag, etc.

Why should I start a new forum when this one is dead but could be brought back with just a little support from the moderators. All I'm asking of them is to enforce rules that have been neglected since Tom left. It's that simple.

I have an idea but will not move on it until I have a conversation with someone that can enforce the rules. That's all I'm asking for.

Because you're unhappy with how things are run. Instead of complaining about it, bring a solution.

Facebook is not all its cracked up to be, it's very difficult to run projects there due to how the algorithms work. You post something and it doesn't even show up in your own feed, you have to go look for it them turn on each comment to read it. Plus you have to re-read an entire post to find new comments. It's an ignorant way to run a forum.

MCB is just TOO LARGE, to many forums and bst is lumped in with everyone else, its not Automag spesific, I've never done business there, never will.

Facebook sucks so no disagreement there. Facebook isn't intended to be a forum.

Sort of sounds like your fault for not engaging in/with MCB. Great forum with a lot of great discussion.

This is not just about my business, my business is doing great. This is about community, this is about other builders, designers, manufacturers, techs, guys offering printing services, etc. It's about Tuna and XMT here on AO without traffic. XMT cant even fill a preorder, but my guess he could if this place was brought back from the dead. I want to see him complete those projects, the community needs him and we need Tuna, we need everyone that contributes under one roof. This is about me seeing the need to get everyone back under on roof where Automags is the focus. Like it was when Tom was here.

Then build up the community that you so believe in and stop waiting around for others to do so. You keep mentioning Tom but that was a long freaking time ago.

I'm not an electronics guy, I have tried for many years to purchase the rights to the UTB, but Scenario Dreams disappeared. I've had a dozen builders try to create a new UTB but in the end they all walk away from the project. I have an electronic frame ready for production, just need UTB boards.

I'm not sure why a "new UTB" is necessary, whatever board that is. Nor does that even matter. Scenario Dreams, Tado, Planet Eclipse, etc. doesn't do anything unique with electronics. Period. They aren't Texas Instruments, Intel, IBM, they are just simply integrators of technology.

If I was to do a new board I'd prototype the concept with a raspberry PI or maybe something a bit more C architecture based and prove out that all the functionalities can be done and then use KiCAD to do the board layout. Voltage booster to take the two AA battery output to 5V or potentially just 3.3V depending on what processor is chosen. I'd probably look for something that has minimal input/outputs (inputs: eyes/micoswitch, output: solenoid), SDRAM (no microSD), and can power LCD screen. You certainly want something that is going to draw as little power as possible to actuate the solenoid. One of biggest, foolish design choices by Tom was giving the user to the ability to operate the marker in mechanical and electronic mode.

Hell I bet there's probably open source GIT repos to pull source code from for the LCD screen. With ChatGPT / Claude / etc. you can probably speed up firmware development by a factor of 10x as well.

I make my own LcX valve. To go truly hoseless it's a complete remake of most of the parts involved. A project I spent a great deal of time looking into and decided I dont want to do it. I'm closer to retirement than not. What you mentioned can be done but I'm not your huckleberry.

I get it, R&D is expensive, hard, and time consuming. If you want to drive innovation, then share those CAD drawings so folks can work off them and make a macro less automag.

[luke]

Why would folks come here when the marker is no longer on the market?

There's plenty going to to justify what I'm trying to do.

Because you're unhappy with how things are run. Instead of complaining about it, bring a solution. You seem like you've been very unhappy about this place for a long time but now want to rant about it? You've been here since 2001.

I have a solution I believe could work. All I'm asking for in return is the rules be enforced like they were when TK was here and remove friendly corner because its a distraction to the objective.

This is only about Automags and bringing everyone back home, and hopefully we can all behave like grown men.

Facebook sucks so no disagreement there. Facebook isn't intended to be a forum.

Its meant to be a place of communication but they do their level best to make that dificult.

Sort of sounds like your fault for not engaging in/with MCB. Great forum with a lot of great discussion.

I've been on MCB everyday for several decades.

Then build up the community that you so believe in and stop waiting around for others to do so. You keep mentioning Tom but that was a long freaking time ago.

That's what I'm doing now.
Tom Kaye has his new thing going on at Facebook, he does watch what's going in the Automag groups. AO is still Toms house even though he's moved on. Everyone here has a tremendous amount of respect for the man, and AO is still a part of his legacy in the industry.

I'm asking we all show some respect and act like grownups so we can rebuild this place.

I'm not sure why a "new UTB" is necessary, whatever board that is. Nor does that even matter. Scenario Dreams, Tado, Planet Eclipse, etc. doesn't do anything unique with electronics. Period. They aren't Texas Instruments, Intel, IBM, they are just simply integrators of technology.

I'll tell you why, it's because I have a new electronic grip frame ready for production. I've invested thousands and nearly a year in development, prototyping, and testing. It's designed around the UTB which is about the size of a postage stamp.

That's really old news, I moved on a decade ago..

If I had a ton of free time I would love to collaborate with you and design a macro less electronic automag

I know exactly how to build a true gas thru hoseless marker. There are just to many trade offs in the development of a new marker.

I get it. R&D is expensive, hard, and time consuming. If you want to drive innovation, then share those CAD drawings so folks can work off them and make a macro less automag.

Not a chance lol, though eventually I will put it up for sale. It's all in there, complete, files are setup modular in nature, very detailed including part numbers, and ALL production files, fixtures, setup, materials, tooling, the works.

Another idea is figuring out how to get the marker to shoot off lower pressures so you can reduce the spring tension and the weight of the bolt

I pretty much figured that out already, but I came to a point I had to decide my direction, which is an investment on many levels. I chose to maintain the RTPro type platform because I was already heavily invested in it. That new valve was considered and studied for a long time before I chose to make the LcX valve.

The new valve would have been paired with a new hoseless marker. Part of the problem would have been that it would be a completely new marker and would not be modular with any other Automag. And a conflict of interest with the rest of what I've developed.

Also if this section of the forum was to die off I do think this place would be better off.

Moving forward it is. People are sick of it.

[CitsejaMkraDehT]

I have a solution I believe could work. All I'm asking for in return is the rules be enforced like they were when TK was here and remove friendly corner because its a distraction to the objective.

This is only about Automags and bringing everyone back home, and hopefully we can all behave like grown men.

Go for it.

I'll tell you why, it's because I have a new electronic grip frame ready for production. I've invested thousands and nearly a year in development, prototyping, and testing. It's designed around the UTB which is about the size of a postage stamp.

You're really misunderstanding how this entire process works. The size of UTB's board is largely irrelevant and what they did is not a unique thing. Any PCB manufacturer should be able to create a board of similar dimensions as long as all the parts fit on the PCB layout.

Prototyping with a Raspberry PI or some sort of other microprocessor is going to be far easier and will save time and money until you need to actually put everything on silicon. "Bread boarding" is essential and saves you a ton of time and effort.

There are just to many trade offs in the development of a new marker.

I'm sure there is.

Not a chance lol, though eventually I will put it up for sale. It's all in there, complete, files are setup modular in nature, very detailed including part numbers, and ALL production files, fixtures, setup, materials, tooling, the works.

Not surprising, looks like you've got all your ducks in a row which is important when it comes to manufacturing and repeatability.

I pretty much figured that out already, but I came to a point I had to decide my direction, which is an investment on many levels. I chose to maintain the RTPro type platform because I was already heavily invested in it. That new valve was considered and studied for a long time before I chose to make the LcX valve.

The new valve would have been paired with a new hoseless marker. Part of the problem would have been that it would be a completely new marker and would not be modular with any other Automag. And a conflict of interest with the rest of what I've developed.

I bet. Doing anything right is difficult, expensive, and time consuming.

[luke]

I'll "go for it" if the powers that be are on board.

You're really misunderstanding how this entire process works. The size of UTB's board is largely irrelevant and what they did is not a unique thing. Any PCB manufacturer should be able to create a board of similar dimensions as long as all the parts fit on the PCB layout.

Prototyping with a Raspberry PI or some sort of other microprocessor is going to be far easier and will save time and money until you need to actually put everything on silicon. "Bread boarding" is essential and saves you a ton of time and effort.

I hear what you're saying but electronics is not in my wheel house. I'm saying that project was started in 2016 and was ready for production and shelved in 2017.

I chalked that up as a loss nearly a decade ago. At this point I'm not going to pursue developing a board myself, if one came available in the same size as the UTB I would bring the project back. However solenoids of this size have all been discontinued around 2015 which I didnt know about back then. I doubt the project would support a run of noids, they tend to only do large runs.

It took 7 prototypes to make me happy, lol
The wiring is a little messy but this was only a prototype, this final design that was going to production.

There's some hidden goodness there that I've never shown.
That is the full trigger stroke...

[CitsejaMkraDehT]

I hear what you're saying but electronics is not in my wheel house. I'm saying that project was started in 2016 and was ready for production and shelved in 2017.

I chalked that up as a loss nearly a decade ago. At this point I'm not going to pursue developing a board myself, if one came available in the same size as the UTB I would bring the project back. However solenoids of this size have all been discontinued around 2015 which I didnt know about back then. I doubt the project would support a run of noids, they tend to only do large runs.

It took 7 prototypes to make me happy, lol
The wiring is a little messy but this was only a prototype, this final design that was going to production.

There's some hidden goodness there that I've never shown.
That is the full trigger stroke...

That's one big switch!!

Planet Eclipse did the right thing by mounting their microswitch on the board. Saves time with having to solder / less wiring but gives you less flexibility since mounting has to be done with a specific geometry.

I'm not really following on you solenoids. Solenoids are usually either mono-stable or bi-stable. If they are mono-stable they usually will run off of pulse width modulation. Programming both operations in is rather trivial.

7 prototypes is a rather small amount! I'm sure you've moved onto (or I hope you have) 3d printing to test geometries out first.

That UTB board looks rather simplistic frankly. Just a quick glance but it looks like it has a buck converter (9V -> 5V) and potentially just a very simple microprocessor that is a QFP package so it's likely only a two layer stack up. With the amount of (or lack thereof instructions) they likely could just use the cache on the microprocessor.

Does that board have an LCD output / programming features/modes?

If all it supports is a few selectable firing modes (semi-auto / 3 shot burst / ramping) with only a single solenoid support that's a far easier bar to clear.

Who did you hire to try and build a new board? Because I'm a bit flabbergasted, they weren't able to accomplish this, but it is the paintball world.... so I'm not terribly surprised.

[luke]

That's one big switch!!

huh?

7 prototypes is a rather small amount! I'm sure you've moved onto (or I hope you have) 3d printing to test geometries out first.

Not all seven were machined, I believe I only machined one other then completely changed the design. To me 7 prototypes are 7 complete designs, not 7 tested frames.

Printing would only add time to the project and would cost money.

I'm at a massive advantage being the creator, designer, programmer, setup guy, machinist, etc. I'm in the best position to keep track of the objective. In most situations you would have a man in each of those positions but his perspective is limited to the one job. I can cross reference, prioritize, and make adjustments anywhere along the line. I find issues in real time and can correct them as they happen.

For me, the 3d printing only proofs the solid model and that's only a small part of the process. You cant accurately measure those parts to adjust tooling diameters to hit target dimensions, so in my situation there's no advantage.

I work out probably 98-99% of the design and production issues before I ever machine a part and I can stop anywhere in the process to make changes. Machining prototypes for me is also prepping for production which is pretty involved if your making precision parts.

The board was simple, that was the point of the design. They were ran in a bunch of markers, it was a "Universal" T Board.
No LCD output

It was fully programmable. I dont remember the details that was a decade ago and I didnt mess with it, I was developing a Mag frame, it just never got that far before the project was shelved.

The details are out there on the net I'm sure

[CitsejaMkraDehT]

huh?



Not all seven were machined, I believe I only machined one other then completely changed the design. To me 7 prototypes are 7 complete designs, not 7 tested frames.

Printing would only add time to the project and would cost money.

I'm at a massive advantage being the creator, designer, programmer, setup guy, machinist, etc. I'm in the best position to keep track of the objective. In most situations you would have a man in each of those positions but his perspective is limited to the one job. I can cross reference, prioritize, and make adjustments anywhere along the line. I find issues in real time and can correct them as they happen.

For me, the 3d printing only proofs the solid model and that's only a small part of the process. You cant accurately measure those parts to adjust tooling diameters to hit target dimensions, so in my situation there's no advantage.

I work out probably 98-99% of the design and production issues before I ever machine a part and I can stop anywhere in the process to make changes. Machining prototypes for me is also prepping for production which is pretty involved if your making precision parts.

The board was simple, that was the point of the design. They were ran in a bunch of markers, it was a "Universal" T Board.
No LCD output

It was fully programmable. I dont remember the details that was a decade ago and I didnt mess with it, I was developing a Mag frame, it just never got that far before the project was shelved.

The details are out there on the net I'm sure

I've done my fair share of CAD work and I find 3d printing to be pretty invaluable. The ability to prove out the solid model with minimal effort (besides 3d print time) is pretty fantastic.

I imagine at this point most of your drawings are accurate and you can use CAD tooling to check fitment / tolerances.

Looks like this is it: https://www.e-paintball.com/product/...fits-all-guns/

Anyways, best of luck!

[luke]

I imagine at this point most of your drawings are accurate and you can use CAD tooling to check fitment / tolerances.

All of my designs were accurate when the project is completed, it's a little bit of an obsession. lol

I find 3d printing to be pretty invaluable.

How valuable 3d printing is based strictly on perspective, it is for you but not for me

I can machine the part in far less time than you could print it.

[CitsejaMkraDehT]

I can machine the part in far less time than you could print it.

Generally, I will just send the drawing to the printer before going to work and it'll be done by then. Wait times in general are not relevant to me if I can do / need to do other things.

I think it takes longer than 'clicking a few parameters and clicking send' to machine a part. So to print a part for me usually takes about 1 minute excluding the print time.

But as you've mentioned it largely depends on what you're trying to do.

[luke]

Generally, I will just send the drawing to the printer before going to work and it'll be done by then. Wait times in general are not relevant to me if I can do / need to do other things.

Dont get me wrong 3d printers are cool as hell, if I had one I would be doing different projects on them. I think a chess set and board would be a fun project for printing.