Israel

[FutureMagOwner]

not sure but didnt the isrealites(sp) make the desert eagle also? i know thats the isrally's army's main hand gun at least i think

[HoppysMag]

ok... well i try to tell you why i said what i said. i believe what i said and really theres nothing you could argue to change those beliefs... the only way i will change my mind is with hard info.... mabey some day i will find enough time to bypass my public school info and actualy find wether i am right or wrong.. but for now i think i will simply say that those who forget the past are damned to repeat it...

[shartley]

ok... well i try to tell you why i said what i said. i believe what i said and really theres nothing you could argue to change those beliefs... the only way i will change my mind is with hard info....

mabey some day i will find enough time to bypass my public school info and actualy find wether i am right or wrong..

Well, you are using the Internet right now. All the information you need or are looking for, is at your fingertips. Now days, there is no excuse for not being able to find the facts. If you have time to type on this forum, you have the time to go to any search engine and do a simple search for the facts you seek. That is if you are truly interested.

but for now i think i will simply say that those who forget the past are damned to repeat it...

[Havoc_online]

They do do a lot of underhanded things (Shartley, I am in the know ) such as kidnapping, extortion, etc.

LOL, my old boss (Yoav) was a intel officer and he told me a few stories. In other words, terrorize the terrorists!

Also, his brother was the commander of the first team of international(mid east) spec ops that was made by a few ppl from different countries if I remember correctly.
More stories there...

[HoppysMag]

ok... congratulations shartley you've proven your point once again....

[oldsoldier]

Actually Shartley, I believe the land annexed
now called israel was given to the families of holocaust victims per the treaty. I could be wrong, but I do believe that at least some of the people there were a direct result of either fleeing for their lives, being smuggled, or, early on, given the choice to leave Germany. Granted, what is now Israel has always been a jewish state, but wasnt recoginzed by the muslim community as one. So, after WWII, it was "given" to the jews, who already lived there (in Palestine), and was recognized as a separate state. This is one of the sore points with
Palestine. Again, I may have some of my facts confused...so, if I am wrong, I apologize.

[AutoMaggot]

Oldsoldier is correct... Given to Jewish people in light of the Holocaust as a restoration offer from the United Nations in May of 1948... they were attacked the day after it was created... lmao...

[Army]

The Desert Eagle is by no means an issue weapon with the IDF, way too big and way too silly. They have used Colt 1911A1's, the Browning Hi-Power in 9mm, SIG's, Glocks, an FN varient of a Mauser, and their own indigeneous handgun made by UZI called the Jericho, known here as the "Baby Eagle".

Just in case you are going to ask...their issue rifles are of the M16 family. They also use the Galil, which is a home-grown version of the AK. A very interesting AK version is known as the Magal. It is thouroughly modernized, yet chambered for the WWII .30 Carbine round. This is used by most Police Depts as the primary entry weapon, and the .30 carbine keeps over-penetration to a minimum. It's one of the most fun firearms I've ever got to play with.


IMI (Isreali Military Industries), maintains one of the worlds most modern weapons manufacturing facilities, but is NOT a government, nor military corporation. It is soley owned and operated by private citizens, which says much for Isreal's Democratic political stance.

[oldsoldier]

Galil is (was?) a genius. I saw a vid of him with the guys from thunder ranch, doing CQB, pistol drills, etc. They interviewed him, the guy was just simply amazing. They also interviewed Kalishnikov...IMO, they are both on par with one another.

[ShinyGuy]

Interesting note on the IDF ground forces; (I'm sure Army knows this but he didn't mention it) Israel doesn't believe in issueing new weapons to their troops unless they have a good reason to. At any given time they will issue whatever is the latest and greatest gun (uzi, m16, galil, m4, g36, etc) to the new recrutes and those soldiers use that weapon until they retire from active duty at which point the weapon is retired with them (Israel has a very large percentage of their population armed. And I won't even start this debate). This means the IDF has a very large variety of weapons in service at any time. By limiting themselves to only a few different calibers of ammo and having each soldier maintain his or her own weapon they avoid most problems associated with the variety.

[shartley]

Yes, you are partially correct. But saying it was given to them in light of the Holocaust is not the whole story, or really an accurate reflection of why it was done.

(quote from a fantastic Historical Site about Israel.. full link will follow.)

On November 29, 1947, the General Assembly of the United Nations voted with a 2/3 majority to partition western Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab state.(1) The Jews were to be granted what appears on the map in blue. Over 75% of the land allocated to the Jews was desert. Desperate to find a haven for the remnants of European Jewry after the Holocaust, the Jewish population accepted the plan which accorded them a diminished state.

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/

http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html

And here is yet another great site that has a nice Historical overview from Biblical times to modern. And again, when commenting on UN Plan 181, there is no mention of the Holocaust as a reason for it.

http://www.mideastweb.org/BriefHistory.htm

And here is an actual draft of the UN Plan 181

http://www.mideastweb.org/181.htm

[Dude]

Originally posted by shartley

Shartley, that is incorrect. The vast majority of Isreal's population now is made up of desceneants of European and Russian Jews that migrated to Israel after WWII. The people that live in Israel now are mostly the children or grandchildren of Russian or European Jews.

[Army]

Excellent refferences Sam, thank you.

May I also recommend to all, to read "Exodus". Good insight into the Euro-Jew and the Isrealite.

[shartley]

Dude

They HAVE had hard times, and have learned from them.. but you confuse European Jews involved with the Holocaust with Jews that have always lived in the area that is now called Israel. They are different people.

Army

[Mav D MagMan]

Thanks for the info guys, Army I used your alliance info, as well as yours automaggot. I finally got that part of my presentation done.

nd I'm nearly totally finished with my project, but this discussion is really confusing me... Why the big argument over why the Jewish people are tough? Isn't it enough that they are, and have been fighting since long before any of our modern world was arround?

And Shartley the people were betrayed, read Night (Elie Weisel), it gives a great account of how they didn't know how to fight back or even what was going on around them. But I'll spoil the ending because it is important, in order to halt the final elimination of the Jewish population in the final concentration camp this young man was detained in, the Jewish Resistance rose up and took control of the camp.

Also I've seen and heard the stories of Holocaust survivors who were trained by the Nazis to use machine guns and such that participated in the war of '48. So your theories on Pacifism do have a few holes in them.