Israel

[shartley]

And Shartley the people were betrayed, read Night (Elie Weisel), it gives a great account of how they didn't know how to fight back or even what was going on around them. But I'll spoil the ending because it is important, in order to halt the final elimination of the Jewish population in the final concentration camp this young man was detained in, the Jewish Resistance rose up and took control of the camp.

Also I've seen and heard the stories of Holocaust survivors who were trained by the Nazis to use machine guns and such that participated in the war of '48. So your theories on Pacifism do have a few holes in them.

[shartley]

Why the big argument over why the Jewish people are tough? Isn't it enough that they are, and have been fighting since long before any of our modern world was arround?

[Mav D MagMan]

[shartley]

[thwacking Mav D MagMan with a noodle]

[RT_Luver]

most the countries over their are not on what you would call "allience" terms

[FaSSt]

A couple of disparate points...

Although no military "alliance" exists between the countries, Israel and South Africa have historically cooperated on things such as the development of each country's nuclear weapons program. Both countries now possess nuclear weapons as well as them means to deliver them. There is also cooperation in the aerospace area.


While I generally tend to agree with shartley in a lot of his posts here, I think that his arguments about the lack of a connection between the Holocaust and the State of Israel in terms population may not be correct. Obviously, over time the demographics of a country change. However, I do not think that the argument can be made that Jews surviving the Holocaust were not a significant force politically, socially and intellectually in Israel.


WWII had a deep and lasting impact on the entire world for much longer than some people think. The Cold War is only now beginning to end. The Jews of Israel had and continue to have to be pragmatic to survive - this accounts for the Israeli Air Force using WWII German Me-109s during its War of Independence against Arab Spitfires and Hurricanes supplied by the British.


Germany, as Army pointed out, is generally very supportive of Israel. This is primarily because Germans as a whole are still very ashamed by the Holocaust and try to "make up" for it as they can. Among other items, Germany supplied submarines (again, ironically) and technology to Israel.

Army

[shartley]

While I generally tend to agree with shartley in a lot of his posts here, I think that his arguments about the lack of a connection between the Holocaust and the State of Israel in terms population may not be correct. Obviously, over time the demographics of a country change. However, I do not think that the argument can be made that Jews surviving the Holocaust were not a significant force politically, socially and intellectually in Israel.

[FaSSt]

Sorry for being obtuse. I see your point.

Personally, were I a Jew surviving the Holocaust, I would have given up on the idea of a god. From what I understand (I have not done too much reading first-hand in this area), a significant body of post-WWII Jewish literature deals with just this idea.

[Bartleby]

Shartley, I'm warning right now that i'm on a bit of a rant due to reading through all of your posts as I find many of them deeply insulting, in or out of context. From your writings a person can quite easily reach the conclusion that you yourself are not Jewish, and if you were then you are no longer. Given this is out of context, you point about the connection of a Jews to Isreal is entirely false. As any person of a given religion sees his/her homeland as his/her own. This is a direct connection and cannot be broken by any means other than the complete disownment of that said religion.

An additional comment I have is in relation to your notes on the differences between European and Middle Eastern Jews. You consider them to be entirely different, the European Jews you call weak and compare them to sheep (highly insulting) and the Middle Eastern Jews you say fought back...which you slightly connect to the creation and preserving of Isreal. You have blatently called all those who died in the Holocaust mindless "sheep", with too much faith in their God, but were you a Jew you would know that the Torah does not teach us to have blind faith, it teaches that God will guide us to what is right but we ourselves must make the decision.

I wish I could controll my thoughts right now, but this topic and the information presented has created a whirlwind in my mind and i cannot organize my thoughts enough to post them up in a coherent order. I suppose i may come back when some steam has dissipated.

[shartley]

Bartleby
Let me first apologize for any personal insult you may have felt. None was intended. I hope you truly believe me, for I am being honest.

I can understand how someone would not like to hear or read things that may upset them, or may not be of their liking. This would be true saying a person who is obese is fat. They may not like that, and may want to think of themselves as anything other than, but it does not change things.

From your writings a person can quite easily reach the conclusion that you yourself are not Jewish, and if you were then you are no longer. Given this is out of context, you point about the connection of a Jews to Isreal is entirely false. As any person of a given religion sees his/her homeland as his/her own. This is a direct connection and cannot be broken by any means other than the complete disownment of that said religion.

An additional comment I have is in relation to your notes on the differences between European and Middle Eastern Jews. You consider them to be entirely different, the European Jews you call weak and compare them to sheep (highly insulting) and the Middle Eastern Jews you say fought back...which you slightly connect to the creation and preserving of Isreal. You have blatently called all those who died in the Holocaust mindless "sheep", with too much faith in their God, but were you a Jew you would know that the Torah does not teach us to have blind faith, it teaches that God will guide us to what is right but we ourselves must make the decision.

I wish I could controll my thoughts right now, but this topic and the information presented has created a whirlwind in my mind and i cannot organize my thoughts enough to post them up in a coherent order. I suppose i may come back when some steam has dissipated.

[Bartleby]

My apologies as well for getting to emotionally involved for an online forum debate, but you speak to me right now as if you believe i know nothing of the subject. Nothing "factual" at least.
If this is so true, then why are many American Jews returning to Isreal to fight for its preservation. There was a discussion on 60 Minutes about the issues with the occupation and the numerous terrorist suicide bombings in Gaza and the West Bank as well as most all other places in Isreal or the territories it occupies. The show interviewed a number of American Jews that are "returning" to their homeland of Isreal in order to put their lives on the line for a connection which exists only through religious background. A connection you say is not enough.

I'm sorry if I accused you of calling all those who died in the Holocaust mindless sheep, but it is indeed what you appeared to be stating. However, you do strongly believe, for some reason, that no Jews made any attempt to defend themselves and thus. But I'm affraid to say that you are mistaken. Jews were only destroyed by the Holocaust in places where the Nazis were openly welcomed or where the Nazis were not forced to abide by the spoken country's law. In many places in Europe, where the Nazis weren't welcomed but weren't forcfully defended against, the Nazis were forced to abide by the law of those countries. An example is that the Nazis' way of rounding up Jews in a particular town was to walk down the street and knock on each door, one by one, asking for any Jewish residence to exit the building where they would be "arrested" and moved onto trains like cattle. If the resident did not open the door, then the SS Officers or German soldiers would kick out the door and forcefully aprehend the people inside. In these places, a way of retaliation was to enforce the laws of the said nation by arresting the Germans for breaking in and entering. So, effectively, should a Jewish family not answer the door when the Nazis came through town, the family would remain intact while the Nazis could do nothing but continue on to the next house, as they had the army of that nation right behind. While the names of those countries sip my mind at the moment, should you not believe me you can state it so and I will return with more specifics. But this method of retaliation was only successfull in those nations that openly discouraged the Third Reich.

In addition to nations forcing the Nazis to abide by national law, many Jews that fled countries which had fallen to Nazi control enlisted in the military of their new country and returned to help those in need of assistence. For instance, The United Kingdom had a number of Jewish platoons and battalions that were made up of Jews that fled their homes. These battalions and platoons were strictly volunteer and were involved in many, many operations to save the lives of Jews that could not seek safety for whatever reason.

Yes, I can understand how the information presented might be upsetting for someone who thinks that all the blame for what happened to some of the people in his/her religion lies with others. I can understand some people wanting to play the victim card for all eternity. I can also agree that a few people being victims is very possible.. but for the massive amounts of people who were in fact herded like sheep (sorry, it is a common analogy used in this case and very fitting, painful as it may be to hear) and killed.. I find it hard to believe they could not have done anything as a group. And again, I am sorry if you do not like this, but I am by FAR not the only one who feels that way.

You act is if I know nothing and that I am simply blinded by the truth and would rather live in a lie than face the facts. But the facts still stand against you. Picture yourself with your family being seperated and sorted, and forced through lines and lines of people, getting your gold teeth pulled and all of your belongings taken away. Would you retaliate? Of course you would, like any other sane person. And many did in the Holocaust, and most were shot and killed, thus teaching a lesson to the others who witnessed the murder. These were just people wanting to live, and the act of retaliation sealed your fate with a short life. No one knew what was happening, at least not the people in the camps that were being gased and then burned in ovens. I'm sure you heard the stories that when you first walked into a gas chamber, the "nurses" would hand out bars of soap and told people to wash quickly and thoroughly.

While you may think that I consider those people victoms, this is not entirely so. Many made a decision to stay, against all odds they wished to remain at home and not flee from anything, as that was against Jewish moral. The Torah teaches us to face our problems. But maybe this was a problem that could not be faced. While I do believe that many were unaware and that many were victoms and many were not, I do believe, very very strongly, that other countries should have made more efforts to stopping the genocide. Should you want examples please ask, I'm dieing to name them off, one by one.

You were doing so well up untill right here. Your apology was accepted by myself untill you chose to belittle me. While you apologize continuously in this post you still force your opinion without you, yourself knowing all the facts. While I can admitt i do not know everything about the Holocaust or Jewish history in the Middle East, or the history and politics behind the creation of Isreal, I must stand and say that you are utterly mistaken in your perception of the Holocaust. The only problem is that you believe the opposite. I truly wish that there was an answer but the only true fact in this entire discussion remains, the fact that neither of us know all there is to know about the subject, and we can merely discuss the issues from either side forever without ever reaching an agreement, unless we can agree on that.

[FaSSt]

Let me help you out here

Originally posted by Bartleby
...the Nazis were forced to abide by the law of those countries. An example is that the Nazis' way of rounding up Jews in a particular town was to walk down the street and knock on each door, one by one, asking for any Jewish residence to exit the building where they would be "arrested" and moved onto trains like cattle. If the resident did not open the door, then the SS Officers or German soldiers would kick out the door and forcefully aprehend the people inside. In these places, a way of retaliation was to enforce the laws of the said nation by arresting the Germans for breaking in and entering. So, effectively, should a Jewish family not answer the door when the Nazis came through town, the family would remain intact while the Nazis could do nothing but continue on to the next house, as they had the army of that nation right behind. While the names of those countries sip my mind at the moment...

Axis-aligned countries under German occupation did not have "the army of that nation right behind" them. (Or they would not be occupied countries, now would they.) Most, if not all, European countries at the time had some anti-Semitic political groups. Many countries under German occupation developed Fascist parties of their own, who assisted the German Nazis in their Final Solution. True, some countries/populations were more willing and able to shelter Jews and others persecuted by the Nazis, but it was rarely, if ever, as easy as you make it seem.

I'm not contesting all of your points, but I think that you should realize that people like shartley are "on your side" generally. They are not the ones you should take offense to.

[shartley]

Bartleby

I truly wish that there was an answer but the only true fact in this entire discussion remains, the fact that neither of us know all there is to know about the subject, and we can merely discuss the issues from either side forever without ever reaching an agreement, unless we can agree on that.

If this is so true, then why are many American Jews returning to Isreal to fight for its preservation. There was a discussion on 60 Minutes about the issues with the occupation and the numerous terrorist suicide bombings in Gaza and the West Bank as well as most all other places in Isreal or the territories it occupies. The show interviewed a number of American Jews that are "returning" to their homeland of Isreal in order to put their lives on the line for a connection which exists only through religious background. A connection you say is not enough.

[obsolete898]

That's some what true, but Jews have a stronger tie to the land of Isreal because the Torah(sp) states that God gave that land to them. That's a little stonger than the tie to the vatican.

Also alot of Jews trace thier lineage as far back as to know wich tribe they were from.

Another good piece of info is that to alot of jews not only is being jewish thier religion, but also thier nationality.

[Dude]

Originally posted by shartley [/B]