Israel

[Bartleby]

ehhh.....you don't wanna go there...

[Army]

Jack_Dubious, get your history right, before you put on the spin.

The reason Israel is in the so-called "occupied territories" by virtue of being attacked as a nation, then pushing the attacking forces back into their own land. This is normal spoils of warfare, and Isreal is entitled to those lands by default. Syria use to own most of the west bank and Gaza strip.

Also remember, the Palestinian Authority has been offered, many times, their own state/nation which will include much of Jerusalem. Yassir Arafat has refused the offer every time, preferring to continue and intensify his terrorism.

[Jack_Dubious]

Originally posted by Army
Jack_Dubious, get your history right, before you put on the spin.

The reason Israel is in the so-called "occupied territories" by virtue of being attacked as a nation, then pushing the attacking forces back into their own land. This is normal spoils of warfare, and Isreal is entitled to those lands by default. Syria use to own most of the west bank and Gaza strip.

Army,
You are correct, Israel was defending itself. (eventhough technically the did strike first in '67) I never said anything to the contrary. I was just stating that Palestinians were fighting against people who were occupying the land they perceived as thier homeland.

Dont get me wrong, if im trying to put a spin on something, its just for the fact everything else I hear is spinning the other way. :P I have little love for any of the countries/factions in the middle east. I just think people should try looking at both sides first.

Army, you are a Warrior....if you were a Palestinian, what would you be doing?

JDub

[Army]

You are right, Israel did a pre-emptive in '67, but only to counter the obviously massed forces on the borders.

I cannot bring myself to think as a Palestinian. I was not raised for the last 41 years to hate all people that are not Arab or Muslim. My upbringing taught me to quickly analyze the situation, and should it require immediate action, to do it. If I can see that debate, or reasoning, is the better solution, I will go that way too. Live and let live, but fight to the death to protect what is mine.

I know that not all Arabs or Muslims are "anti-the-rest-of-the-world", but far too many react with violence as a solution to the most mundane of problems.

[Dude]

"When Palestinians fight against Israeli occupation, they are called "Terrorists".

The Germans pushed the Jews out of thier homes and into ghettos and concentration camps.

The Israelis bulldoze the homes of Palestinians and force them into "refugee" camps." (Jack_Dubious)



Well the first two statements are correct, but the last one is completely wrong. The Palestinians, were offered an independant state several times in history, and the fact that they are in camps is intirely not the fault of Israel. In U.N. Resolution 181 the U.N. decided that there should be two states in Palestine, one for the Jews and one for the Palestinians. The Jews accepted the resolution, but the Palestinians refused. Also, when the U.N. gave the Jews the land, they never told any Palestinians to leave, and in fact most of them stayed and live in conditions far superior to those in any Arab country. Less than half the Palestinians left, knowing they could not come back to Israel, and were not let into the surrounding half dozen Arab countries.

You say the Israelis bulldoze the homes of Palestinians, which is true. However, this has been grosely over exagerated. In reality, the bulldozed area was only about the size of a football field, and included about 10% of the Jenin camp. The Israelis bulldozed b/c they were taking casualties going door to door in the camp.

Also, before the Israelis bulldozed any homes, they clearly warned the people inside. If anybody died in those houses, and could walk, then their death was their own fault.

Oh yeah, and one more thing. The Palestinians, Journalists and some U.N. officialls have been claiming that a massacre occured at Jenin and that some 600 odd innocent people died. In reality only about 56 people died. And how many of them were women, children or elderly? 6 people. Now compare that to the 23 killed Israeli noncombatants killed on the Passover massacre, the 6 killed near a bus in Jerusalem and the 17 killed yesterday on a bus in northern Israel. The other fifty people that died were all armed combatants, fighting the Israelis.

[Bartleby]

Told you not to go there

Well put Dude.

[Jack_Dubious]

Originally posted by Army
I cannot bring myself to think as a Palestinian. I was not raised for the last 41 years to hate all people that are not Arab or Muslim.

Actually I think it would be more appropriate to say that they are raised to hate Israelis/Jews. (and its been going on for a long long time) Except for the fanatical sects of muslims(people like the taliban or the saudis), most arabs/muslims are quite fond of Americans....they just hate our Government.

I know that not all Arabs or Muslims are "anti-the-rest-of-the-world", but far too many react with violence as a solution to the most mundane of problems.

Humans as a race react with violence far too often. It would be hypocritical of us to single out another group of people and call them violent.


JDub

[Mav D MagMan]

Originally posted by Jack_Dubious
[B]

Actually I think it would be more appropriate to say that they are raised to hate Israelis/Jews. (and its been going on for a long long time) Except for the fanatical sects of muslims(people like the taliban or the saudis), most arabs/muslims are quite fond of Americans....they just hate our Government.

No what he sais was more correct than this your statement. Arab Muslims are violent to everyone they can elicit terror against if they feel it will pressure people into giving into their "cause". If they had a way to walk into a crowded mall here in perfect little America and blow up the entire thing (in order to lower our determination to aid in the defense of Israel) they'd do it in a heartbeat.

They hate us and what we stand for. Simple as that, it isn't just our government they have a tiddly fit against. Extremist muslims want to destroy our way of life.

[ThePatriot]

Originally posted by Mav D MagMan
Extremist muslims want to destroy our way of life.

Actually, they want to destroy capitalism. I'm not pro arab or anything here, but they dont want to just kill people for no reason. They want to take down capitalism, and if it means killing innocent people they will do it. However their main goal isnt to kill people. That is one of the main reason they targeted the Twin towers, the towers were the place where nearly all business in the country, and a lot of the world's business went through. The business that was there was capitalist business.....hence them blowing up the towers. They live off a kind of "The ends justify the means" lifestyle, if they can achieve what they want, it is well worth however many lives they end.

[Dude]

Originally posted by ThePatriot


Actually, they want to destroy capitalism.

That is correct to a point, but it is not the main reason why they hate us. They hate our way of life because they see us as infadels with a totally amoral culture.. They hate that we supported the oppressive governments in their countries before they took them over, they hate that we are not Muslims and they hate our support for Israel. This might not be true all Muslims, but it is true for the members of the extremist groups.

Prior to 9/11 Osama bin Laden said the world would "see again Saladin carrying his sword, the blood of unbelievers dripping from it."

P.S. Saladin was the sultan that defeated the Crusaders under Richard the Lion-Hearted.

[Bartleby]

Dude i was going to respond to him but after reading your post i realized there was no need. I agree with you 100%.

[ThePatriot]

Yes, the exremist muslims believe non believers of the muslim faith should die when they are alive. That is the only difference to the christian faith, whereas non believers do not die when they are alive, just sentenced to an eternity of pain and suffering. Same beliefs just a different way of dealing with them. I sound so damned pro extremist muslim right now.....while its totally the contrary, israel should just go destroy the muslims. They deserve it after the hundreds of years the israelies(not when they had their own country, just when they inhabited the land) were forced to deal with the muslim's hatred.

Oh, one more thing, its not only extremist muslims....im not blaming American peaceful muslims or anything, but i'm sure you all saw the videos of the people in the middle east celebrating the World Trade Center coming down. Seems to me its not just extremist groups, but however the entire arabic middle east that is against us.

[Bartleby]

Patriot, find out what you can about the Saudi Royal Family and the U.S.'s relationship with them. You'll see why they hate us.

[Jack_Dubious]

Originally posted by ThePatriot

Oh, one more thing, its not only extremist muslims....im not blaming American peaceful muslims or anything, but i'm sure you all saw the videos of the people in the middle east celebrating the World Trade Center coming down. Seems to me its not just extremist groups, but however the entire arabic middle east that is against us.

The video they were showing people celebrating 9/11 was video footage from the early '90s. By the time people in the middle east found out about the World Trade Center, it would have been almost sunset....in the video it is clearly noontime (judging by the shadows on the ground). Funny how the news media never shows this video anymore...and never tell you it had nothing to do with 9/11.

The truth is out there...

JDub

[Dude]

Originally posted by Bartleby
Dude i was going to respond to him but after reading your post i realized there was no need. I agree with you 100%.

Cool, it seems like we agree on almost everything on this subject.