Sell me on the upgrade....

[Orange Crush]

Let me give a little history first. I played with an F2 illustrator for a long time when it first came out. I swore up and down that I would never spend big money on a marker because it certainly couldn't be worth it. Then one day a friend of mine let me play a few rounds with his Minimag. I was so impressed by the quality and the craftsmanship that I caved on my no "big money" policy and bought an automag. I have been nothing but pleased with this gun since the day I bought it.

I do however find that I am starting to chop quite a few balls (it is liveable) and now its time to upgrade it some more. I just have a hard time justifing the cost in my mind. Not only was the gun expensive, even in the day, the upgrades are extremely expensive too. I'd like to get a double finger trigger setup, and atleast the level X bolt if not the X-valve. I have heard nothing good about any double finger setups other than the AGD one. So now, I am looking at spending atleast $200 to upgrade my automag. If I go the X-valve route then I am looking at $365.

Here is my dilema. I like the gun, I think it shoots well, would do even better with the upgrades, but why spend that much for what is really a nominal increase in performance? More importantly why should I buy the upgrades instead of another marker entirely? I really like the electro markers, and though I can't conceivably see myself in an emag or angel anytime soon, I wouldn't mind having one of the E-spyders. Now before I get flamed, I agree that AGD is a higher quality gun, but for the same price of the upgrades I can have two markers, one of which I know is rock solid reliable. Ultimatley I would rather have the upgraded mag but I just can't wrap my mind around the steep price of doing so.

At this point I have pretty much decided on an E-spyder of some sort, but its a light decision and I could be made to change my mind, but I couldn't come up with any really good reasons, so I thought I would ask you guys, the Mag loyalists what you think. Sell me on the upgrades.

[Blennidae]

Hi Nick, your paintball start story sounds a lot like mine. I also started with an F2 (I still have it) and then I had the chance to shoot a mag.

I upgraded to a Minimag as soon as I could afford it. I played many years with it, with nothing more than an expansion chamber and a different barrel, always satisfied with it. I stopped playing for a bit for various reasons, and was passed up by the technology.

I happened along AO a while back and soon learned that while mags had stayed pretty much the same, they were still competitive. There were some upgrades I could so so I went that route. I'm quite happy still.

Now about the e-spyder vs. upgrading your mag. I don't really know too much about the e-spyders. I have shot one before, but never played a game with one. I think you can get an intelliframe and L10 for about $200, probably less if you look around. Not sure if the spyder costs the same.

If your main issue is chopping, L10 is your fix for that. You can still chop with an e-spyder, and your new found rate of fire with it will probably make the chances worse.

I don't know the reliability of syders, but you know your mag is built to last and easy to troubleshoot.

Depending on your own personal outlook, you might end up regretting buying the e-spyder simply for the idea of having 2 guns. With the mags reliability, you hardly need a back-up.

Personally I think the $200 would be better spent on the I-frame and L10.

[JAM]

Well, you said it yourself- "i would ultimately rather have the upgraded minimag"

I agree. You know it's a solid, super reliable gun, so go with it.

The level 10 is amazing- properly set up, say goodbye to chops. Add the intelliframe and the xvalve and you have a whole new gun. Stick with it. at least until you're rady to go the Xmag route.


my .02

-J

[Orange Crush]

Thanks so far guys.

Blennidae I too still have my F2.

I upgraded to a Minimag as soon as I could afford it. I played many years with it, with nothing more than an expansion chamber and a different barrel, always satisfied with it. I stopped playing for a bit for various reasons, and was passed up by the technology.

This is exactly me as well. Expansion chamber and a couple of barrels. I have only played a handful of times in the past 2-3 years and paintball grew a lot during that time.

JAM thanks for your input as well.

Ultimately though it comes down to dollar signs. I did say I would rather have the upgraded mag, but what I mean was if I could have the upgrade or the E-spyder for free, I'd take the upgrade. They are however not free, and in my mind the upgrade prices are high. The Level X bolt is not too bad at $85...but still seems high to me, but I do expect it to be more expensive than the norm because of the complexity of it.

The intelliframe however is what gets me. Sure its a double-finger trigger, sure it has some extra space for a micro switch if you are so inclined to buy it and install it, but $115?!?! Good God!! No offense to AGD, but IMO that is a freaking rip off!! You can get the standard grip for $20, the CF one for $25..with grips, and then somehow you make the $90 jump to the intelliframe?!?! I want one, but when weighed against that price the idea doesn't hold so well. Maybe there is more to it than I realize that makes it $115.

I don't know, it reminds me of the car market. If you own a lexus you can buy the same exact aftermarket parts for it as you can a honda, the only differnce is a cold air intake for a lexus will cost you $300 vs. $50 for the honda. Same exact thing, but they charge you more cause your car (or gun in this case) cost more to begin with.

I guess I could look for a used intelliframe.

[1stdeadeye]

I-Frame vs. Benchy

It's all about quality. When I upgraded my RT, I checked out my friends Benchmark 2x trigger frame. It didn't feal durable. The safety was a pain. The trigger was wobbly. I went with the Intelli and have not regretted it. It is tight and durable. I even set up the intellifeed!

My R/T is now my back up, but with the I frame and level 10 in it, it rips. I can easily outshoot many electric markers with my warp on it. The only reason that it is not my primary marker is that I got an X-Mag for my birthday from my wife.

[Thordic]

Benchmark 2x Trigger Frame: $59.99

Dye Sticky Grips: $14.99

Total: $74.98

Dye 2x Trigger Frame: $69.99

Dye 2x Trigger: $14.99

Dye Sticky Grips: $14.99

Total: $99.97


You can get an Intelliframe for $100, so effectively its priced to compete with the Dye setup. The Dye is good, but the AGD frame is simply a better product.

You can't compare an aftermarket grip frame to a replacement stock carbon fiber frame, especially as far as price, sorry.

[Orange Crush]

You see, I can compare the CF grip to it because the CF grip is not stock, it too is an upgrade. CF is also a choosy material that takes special care to shape it properly, its not like throwing a piece of aluminum in a CNC mill and voila...a grip frame. The sad fact is that the double frames cost as much as they do because of popularity. I'd have a hard time believing that it costs them $80 more to make the intelliframe.

This brings me to another point, everytime I want to upgrade my mag its going to hit me hard in the pocket book. I like having the nice marker, and I paid a lot of money for it, but does that mean I have to pay out the nose for simple upgrades too?

[Quiet]

I know what you mean but, diminishing return are a reality in paintball as with most everything else.

One thing I would consider in your decision. If you go for the second marker chances are that you will like one better, and on any given day use that marker. If you spend the money on the spyder and it turns out to be the marker you like the least, that money will be spent on something that sits in the trunk of your car. On the other hand if you spend the money on your mag which you know you already like you can increase you enjoyment out of it, so you will get benefit from the money spent. Either way you are only going to play with one marker at a given time, don't forgt to consider that into your decision.

[Koosh]

Do you run co2 or Compressed Air? Just reminding you, you can't run co2 with the X-Valve...

My friend has an E-Spyder, the E-99. It shoots good. Pretty fast, and with a barrel, they go pretty straight too.

I think I would get the Level 10, but wait on the gripframe. If you still want to shoot faster, maybe get one down the road. I would also suggest you try "test-shooting" (if you can) the E-Spyders, and see if thats the route you want to go down.

Few more q's... Whats your entire setup? How often do you play? What do you play agains (guns and skill wise)? What is your budget (total)?

[ShatteredFaith]

Who says you should buy the intelliframe from AGD..?

On the classifieds you should find quite a few used intelliframes for cheap, probably around $75. The X-valve is new so you would have to order that from AGD.

The X-valve is the route I'd take. You would be dropping a lot of money in one sitting, but, it'll be well worth it. You're getting not only a lighter valve, but it would drastically increase your rate of fire, you would have no shoot down, and on top of that, you'd have a reliable, mechanical anti-chop system.

[Schnitzel]

i, too, have followed the same upgrade path.

i had a minimag for a couple months, and in that time i learned the trigger, and began to relaize that i would probably like the advantages of the retro valve. so i upgraded to an RT valve, still using a single trigger.

let me tell you, that this valve alone completely transformed the entire gun. i went from a meager ROF to outshooting my hopper 60% of the time. then i got the LX kit.

unless you've tried it, i cannot explain the difference between a stock mini and an LX retro. i was very happy with my setup, but i knew i could still go further, which is why i went emag. now i have a marker where i know i cant push the envelope of the tournament cap. the only upgrades i am interested in are those that will save me weight (ie ULE sluggo).

i would highly suggest that you test both the e-99 and an LX retro. upgrading or buying a new marker will cost you almost the same ammount of $$$ in the long run. when differences are that close, it's up to preference.

[Xerces]

i don't think anyone has posted this yet, so i will. any aftermarket frames besides itelli and benchy (and z)will void the warrantee. at one point i have had a benchy and an intelli, and i was very impressed with the quality, and i really likes the short trigger pull.

[FalconGuy016]

Originally posted by Orange Crush
I'd have a hard time believing that it costs them $80 more to make the intelliframe.

Probably costs $50 or less
If you want to think of something ridiculous, think of how amazingly overpriced paintballs are

[Orange Crush]

Wow! Thanks for all the good replies guys.

A buddy of mine has a pretty nice E-spyder set up, not sure what model, I have fired it before and it seemed pretty nice, but I think I'll talk him into letting me play a few games with it to help me in my decision.

Quiet you bring up a very good point. At any given time one of the markers will definatley be in the trunk, so that's why I am definately gonna get some trigger time behind another gun before I go that route.

TheFlamingKoosh, yeah, I still run CO2, which I am glad you brought up, because even though I realize that the X-valve is not CO2 compatible, that point slipped my mind, so on top of the $250 upgrade cost, I'd need another what, $250 or so for a tank...as much as I like that idea, its not gonna happen anytime soon.

ShatteredFaith I did check the classifieds before and I saw a few, so I could always keep my eyes peeled for a deal.