Michael Moore is being sued!

[davidb]

Knock the passengers out with gas (forgive me I'm going to run with this WAG), and hope that none of them die from it? Hope that the terrorists don't also have gas masks stashed in there with their assault weapons?

Or, are you assuming, correctly of course, that all of the passengers will attempt (probably successfully) to apprehend the terrorists themselves? FREAKIN' DUH!! Everybody knows this would happen. But what happened to all that concern about the safety of the passengers? Sure, the passengers will eventually subdue the terrorists, but some of them will get injured or killed in the process. But we can't have an armed marshall or pilot because somebody might catch a stray round..

You also seem to be overlooking something (assuming that you are relying on the passengers). You think that a plane full of unarmed passengers will subdue a band of armed terrorists, and yet at the same time feel confident that a plane full of unarmed passengers and an armed air marshall or pilot will be easily overcome by a band of armed terrorists. Can you see where I would disagree with you here?

LOL if you think that that Army's firearm experience is limited to "the way a gun fires", I feel I can confidently assure you that you are mistaken. I would imagine that after all those years he would also have, perhaps, some vague idea of what sort of damage is caused by them. The fact that you continue to argue this idea with an EXPERT is just rediculous. And even if it weren't, the ammo that they would be using on the planes would not punch holes in the plane! Give it up!

[tony emerson]

Ok I DO believe this! Some situations will not be able to be defended by a gun.

Now will you admit that a gun may me a deterrent to some terrorists and has some advantages?

and I am not against multiple forms of defense

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by pito189


I won't bite. If a trained Air Marshall cannot take out 3-4 "armed" terriosts who have razor blades, with a gun. Then that person should not be an Air Marshall. That is the point of having a person trained in marksmenship and handling of the weapon.

Now matter how much training you have, there is only so much a person can do. With the terrorist concentration on smaller airplanes (easier to control) there is no way an air marshal can take out more then 2, if he is lucky and a bullet passes threw one and hits another maybe 3.

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by davidb
Knock the passengers out with gas (forgive me I'm going to run with this WAG), and hope that none of them die from it? Hope that the terrorists don't also have gas masks stashed in there with their assault weapons?

Or, are you assuming, correctly of course, that all of the passengers will attempt (probably successfully) to apprehend the terrorists themselves? FREAKIN' DUH!! Everybody knows this would happen. But what happened to all that concern about the safety of the passengers? Sure, the passengers will eventually subdue the terrorists, but some of them will get injured or killed in the process. But we can't have an armed marshall or pilot because somebody might catch a stray round..

You also seem to be overlooking something (assuming that you are relying on the passengers). You think that a plane full of unarmed passengers will subdue a band of armed terrorists, and yet at the same time feel confident that a plane full of unarmed passengers and an armed air marshall or pilot will be easily overcome by a band of armed terrorists. Can you see where I would disagree with you here?

LOL if you think that that Army's firearm experience is limited to "the way a gun fires", I feel I can confidently assure you that you are mistaken. I would imagine that after all those years he would also have, perhaps, some vague idea of what sort of damage is caused by them. The fact that you continue to argue this idea with an EXPERT is just rediculous. And even if it weren't, the ammo that they would be using on the planes would not punch holes in the plane! Give it up!

I am not pitting my knowledge of guns against his, I am pitting experts who have studied this and have shown their results, against his.

At least you are thinking.

I am not afraid of a person catching a stray bullet for that is just what happens. I know that the marshal will take out two at most before he is taken out, now the terrorist have a gun.

[pito189]

Originally posted by Collegeboy


Now matter how much training you have, there is only so much a person can do. With the terrorist concentration on smaller airplanes (easier to control) there is no way an air marshal can take out more then 2, if he is lucky and a bullet passes threw one and hits another maybe 3.

I don't understand that reasoning behind this. You think a group of terrorists. Let's say 4 with razor blades. Will overtake a air marshall with a gun, in a confined area?

Why do you think these please explain?

I'm off to bed, I have an 8 o'clock class, I hope you answer me and don't beat around the bush even more.

[billybob_81067]

I got it!

Ohhh Ohhh.... I know I know!!! You can just have the cockpit be an airtight compartment and just shut off all the O2 to the rest of the plane until all the passengers (terrorists and all) pass out... then just go back there, find the terrorists, lock them in the lil' restroom and commence getting everyone else started breathing again.

Am I right???

[Steelrat]

Just wanna chime in with some info here. Its okay to utilize normal ammunition on an aircraft. The hole made by a 9mm or .40 bullet will not be large enough to cause explosive decompression, nor will it be large enough to cause structural failure. The trick is to try and avoid shooting at the floor, as that is where the hydraulics and electrical lines are.


Also remember that the marshall is there to defend the cockpit. Defending a position against attack, especially when you have the only gun, is much easier than defending the rest of the plane. The terrorists would probably not know if a passenger is a marshall, or if there are any other armed agents on board, and so would not be able to take them out before attempting a takeover of the plane. If all 4 went after the marshall, and he was unaware of the attack, he is toast. But if he engages them while they are going about doing whatever it is they feel like doing, then they are toast, plain and simple. There's no "freeze, police" crap when it comes to a terrorist incident in an aircraft, deadly force is immediately appropriate. And engaging 4 targets at close range with a semiautomatic handgun is not terribly difficult.

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by pito189


I don't understand that reasoning behind this. You think a group of terrorists. Let's say 4 with razor blades. Will overtake a air marshall with a gun, in a confined area?

Why do you think these please explain?

I'm off to bed, I have an 8 o'clock class, I hope you answer me and don't beat around the bush even more.

Yes I do think so. It is rather simple; there is only so much a guy can do. By the time the air marshal pops off two shots, the terrorist will be on him.

Picture the problem.

billybob, why couldn't you use a system like that, it is effective.

[davidb]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
I know that the marshall will take out two at most before he is taken out, now the terrorist have a gun.

Assuming, of course, that the vast majority of the law-abiding passengers are quadrapalegics, survivors of major strokes, or under the age of 13 or so. Also assuming, of course, that the terrorists somehow know who the marshal is, and/or that the trained air marshall will jump immediately into a situation of which he has no understanding.

Face it, CB, the most likely scenario by FAR is that the air marshall will have his first inkling that something is amiss when he sees a mob or three of passengers wrestling one or more attackers to the ground, in which case he can assist them with his gun if he deems it necessary OR leave the damn gun concealed on his person and rush to assist while maintaining the illusion that he is just another passenger, thus not tipping his hand to whatever other terrorists might still be hidden among the passengers. After the attackers are subdued, common sense can pretty much tell him (her?) and the passengers which of their fellow passengers it might be prudent to keep a weather eye on.

[Steelrat]

Collegeboy, at close range you dont even use the sights on a gun, you just use "point shooting." Its not difficult to engage 3 or more targets in very quick succession that way. Rememeber, the marshals train for those very scenarios.

[davidb]

Originally posted by Collegeboy


Yes I do think so. It is rather simple; there is only so much a guy can do. By the time the air marshal pops off two shots, the terrorist will be on him.

Picture the problem.

billybob, why couldn't you use a system like that, it is effective.

Oh man, that is just precious.. Use a system where you drain the oxygen from the passenger compartment? For one thing, the passengers are going to be understandably annoyed when you start depriving them of oxygen when they have the terrorists hog-tied in the back. For another, while some people are still groggy but conscious, others are going to be passed out on the floor sustaining brain damage from oxygen deprivation. This, of course, places strict limits on the time that you would be able to do this. Which, in turn, means that the terrorists would only have to find a way to last a little bit longer than the rest of the passengers (if they can manage an AK they can get a O2 tank EASY), after which they are now free to move about the cabin. And even IF everything miraculously went right, you still have all of your passengers suffering from varying levels of brain damage, or, in the case of the elderly or enfeebled, death.

Now, before you tell me so, I realize that this was not your idea and you weren't exactly campaigning for it. But - you were so quick to espouse this rediculous idea as a viable solution, despite the fact that it would, BEST CASE scenario, be a minor disaster. Just as quick, in fact, as you were to throw out the idea that an armed pilot/air marshall would be a viable solution because it might, in the WORST CASE scenario, end in disaster.

[davidb]

Originally posted by Collegeboy


Yes I do think so. It is rather simple; there is only so much a guy can do. By the time the air marshal pops off two shots, the terrorist will be on him.

Picture the problem.

Replace muzzle loading piratey-type pistol with Glock - Problem solved.

[davidb]

CB, rereading all this stuff about how the terrorists are going to overpower the marshall before he can get off more than a couple of shots, and keeping in mind what this implies about the mobility of these bastards, I just have to ask (though I'm reluctant because it shreds any chances my previous posts had of getting a response) -

Have you ever been on an airplane?

[tony emerson]

YOU ARE RIGHT GUNS WILL NOT SOLVE ALL PROBLEMS!! NOW I WANT TO HEAR YOUR IDEA! I KNOW YOU HAVE STUDIED UNDER THE MASTER MOORE ON HOW TO POINT FINGERS AND WINE BUT GIVE NO SOLUTIONS! I WANT TO HEAR A NEW IDEA FROM YOU!!! QUIT BULLET DODGING AND ANSWER FOR GODS SAKE

AN NO MY CAPS LOCK IS NOT STUCK ON I AM YELLING!!!!

[Army]

CB....I AM your expert who has studied these things. Even a mediocre trained person could easily engage hundreds of terrorists in the confines of a commercial aircraft.

Picture this: You've popped two baddies, and they have now blocked the aisle (most aircraft only have one center aisle, in case you still don't know what you are talking about), now "the rest" of the baddies have no easy way "to get to you". But, since you are armed with a very effective weapon that you have been mediocreatly(sp?) trained with, all you need to do, is to keep shooting straight down the aisle.

However...

Picture, now, this bit of reality: A well trained Air Marshall (and 99.999% are) easily profiles a half dozen baddies as folks are boarding. He notes where they sit, and is updated on actions or requests from the attendants every few minutes. As multiple eyes and ears for him, the "Stews" can watch all of the baddies full time, from anywhere on the aircraft. The first hint of suspicion is related to the Marshall, and he goes to full alert. He will now casually place himself in a position in the aircraft, that provides him with all the lanes of safe fire he will need (remember, he has been well trained to deal with ALL types of commercial aircraft, so all this comes natural now), and a "Stew" (or he) will alert the cockpit, which will now go to full lock-down with the situation trained pilots arming themselvers with firearms stowed in a special vault. Immediately upon physical action by the baddies, the Marshall will use his well trained discretion to take out the leader first, most likely with multiple, well aimed shots. Any baddie after that, who continues to pose even the least threat, will be targeted and removed from this life. The odds of the baddies having any firearms (much less your ignorantly stupid Hollywood rifle theory) with them is actually pretty darn slim. Slim enough for the Marshall to evaluate any actual threat accordingly in just a few seconds. This scenario will take only a few moments, from first "hink", to last shot. Ammunition choice is irrelevent. Any other devices to restrain, hinder, or incapacitate a human to any degree will not be used....other than handcuffs for the survivors.

For larger aircraft with multiple aisles, be assured that their will be more Marshalls on board to cover all probabilities.

Again, my knowledge of firearms, ammunition, capabilities, ballistics, and training will far surpass any distortions of reality you, or Michael Moore, want to render.

BTW: What the hell does this mean?:

from Collegeboy
Study after study has shown that a few shots placed in a close proximity to each other in a pressurized cabin, can lead to a sizable hole being created in the side of the airplane.

Oh? Really? Chopping wood with a large axe will create wood chips. Hammering nails into an inflated balloon will create popping noises. That is the dumbest thing you have ever said, or actually used as proof of anything. I hope my taxes didn't pay for those pre-conclusive studies.

I'll type this slow, since you aren't reading very quickly yet...Even "close proximity" holes, created in the side of a pressurized airplane, WILL NOT RESULT IN THE AIRCRAFT BEING COMPROMISED IN IT'S FLIGHT CHARACTERISTICS. I hope that bit of factual truth doesn't scare you too much.