Mathematical riddle

[ANGEL LCD]

wouldnt you do the same thing with the coins x-cept you see which pile ways less?

[c2l1k]

Regarding the tire question: I believe you are comparing apples and oranges. Sure, friction has to do with the "normal force" the "co-effecient of friction (static or kenetic)" and the force of friction (F=u*N), which has nothing to do with surface area. However, with the same amount of force due to friction, you need a greater amount of contact with the ground. Let's say each square inch of contact on a tire has the ability to hold against "x" amount of rotational force. If you increase x, you then increase the amount of rotational force the tire can take. (Also the reason why the tires used often look bald). I think you know what I'm trying to say, but at 2:48 AM, the words are somewhat escaping me.

-Chris

[Miscue]

Regarding the tire question: I believe you are comparing apples and oranges. Sure, friction has to do with the "normal force" the "co-effecient of friction (static or kenetic)" and the force of friction (F=u*N), which has nothing to do with surface area. However, with the same amount of force due to friction, you need a greater amount of contact with the ground. Let's say each square inch of contact on a tire has the ability to hold against "x" amount of rotational force. If you increase x, you then increase the amount of rotational force the tire can take. (Also the reason why the tires used often look bald). I think you know what I'm trying to say, but at 2:48 AM, the words are somewhat escaping me.

-Chris

Let's forget about friction altogether, and look at what happens to a tire if you put in X amount of force. If you put bicycle width tires on a Vette and gunned the throttle, what would happen to the tires? They'd be destroyed. Now, why is it that a wider tire can stand up to it? Rembering that... tires are not static, they distort and change shape.

[-Carnifex-]

Would it be that there's more surface area for the for to distributed across?

[bofh]

Regarding the tire question: I believe you are comparing apples and oranges. Sure, friction has to do with the "normal force" the "co-effecient of friction (static or kenetic)" and the force of friction (F=u*N), which has nothing to do with surface area.

You said this, which is correct...

However, with the same amount of force due to friction, you need a greater amount of contact with the ground.

And then you said this, which is not correct and completely contradicts the first statment. Unless you're saying that you need a wider tire deal with the forces you'll have to deal with from the tire spinning. Which is not the reason, and I believe to be wrong too. A wider tire, would have more mass, and more mass unsupported in the center.

[bofh]

Let's forget about friction altogether, and look at what happens to a tire if you put in X amount of force. If you put bicycle width tires on a Vette and gunned the throttle, what would happen to the tires? They'd be destroyed. Now, why is it that a wider tire can stand up to it? Rembering that... tires are not static, they distort and change shape.

The bicycle tire would be destoryed because the thinner sidewalls and lack of steel belting. Car tires, have much stronger sidewalls, and all of them have stronger belting. That has nothing to do with the width of the tire.

Since this seems tougher than I thought it was, I'll give you a hint. Wider Tires do give more Traction than skinny tires. if surface area of is not a component of Friction, where is this extra traction coming from?

[Miscue]

The bicycle tire would be destoryed because the thinner sidewalls and lack of steel belting. Car tires, have much stronger sidewalls, and all of them have stronger belting. That has nothing to do with the width of the tire.

Yes, I know this! You should know that I know this! In fact, that was the whole reason for bringing up a bike tire because of the difference in how the tire is built, on top of the width difference.

BTW, nothing to do with the width of a tire? How would your fortify a bike tire as well as a race car tire, given the space available? Oh yeah, and let's make this a thin tour d'France type bike tire.

There are combinations of factors - what you have in mind is an incomplete one answer solution, that although is a large factor - is not the only one, and an incomplete assessment. I don't think you really understand the question you asked, and instead you're playing the game of "I'm the only one that knows, look at me! You're wrong because that's not what I was thinking of!"

[Miscue]

Since this seems tougher than I thought it was, I'll give you a hint. Wider Tires do give more Traction than skinny tires. if surface area of is not a component of Friction, where is this extra traction coming from?

Wider tires contact the road with more surface area. A sturdy tire with a large contact patch will not distort to the point of sliding friction as soon as a smaller tire would. When the rubber on a tire can no longer give, it slides.

[bofh]

Yes, I know this! You should know that I know this! In fact, that was the whole reason for bringing up a bike tire because of the difference in how the tire is built, on top of the width difference.

BTW, nothing to do with the width of a tire? How would your fortify a bike tire as well as a race car tire, given the space available? Oh yeah, and let's make this a thin tour d'France type bike tire.

There are combinations of factors - what you have in mind is an incomplete one answer solution, that although is a large factor - is not the only one, and an incomplete assessment. I don't think you really understand the question you asked, and instead you're playing the game of "I'm the only one that knows, look at me! You're wrong because that's not what I was thinking of!"

So you're playing the "Redefine the question so I'm right" game?

BTW, They do make really thin wheels, that are used for land speed attemps. So they deal with just as much force if not more. A solid disk, with a solid tire would probally do it.

And I know there are lots of people that know the answer. Just not you.

[Miscue]

So you're playing the "Redefine the question so I'm right" game?

BTW, They do make really thin wheels, that are used for land speed attemps. So they deal with just as much force if not more. A solid disk, with a solid tire would probally do it.

And I know there are lots of people that know the answer. Just not you.

A. How have I redefined the question? Don't waffle with the answer to this.
B. I just knew you'd mention those wheels, although yes they are round circles, they are fundamentally different. Neither car tires, nor the bike tires I mentioned (which are similar to car tires but at a different scale) are solid disks - which are used for an entirely different purpose. Who's redefining the question?
C. Tell us what answer you have in mind, oh great one. Or would you rather keep this a "secret" and pretend as though you have special knowledge? Now obviously you have something different in mind than what I've suggested - and I know that nothing of what I've suggested is incorrect, although perhaps not complete. Whatever reason you have for it that I have not already mentioned, cannot be THE reason for why wider tires are used on race cars. At best it would be one of the most important reasons - yet still only a contributing factor of a set of factors.

[bofh]

Wider tires contact the road with more surface area. A sturdy tire with a large contact patch will not distort to the point of sliding friction as soon as a smaller tire would. When the rubber on a tire can no longer give, it slides.

Actually I was just looking on the internet to see if I could find the answer there. And there are about 40 different types of answers, all of them which seem correct. Some of them which contradict each other, and some that contradict themselves. While many of them are correct on the designs that go into a sports tire, what I was looking for was more abstract, and simplistic.

The answer lies in the question. The surface area doesn't matter for friction. But more surface area does help traction. One reason is, since you have a wider tire, you have that much more chance to put the tire on something that has high traction.

The answer, I get from most people, is that Tires do have a force that helps traction that IS surface area dependant. And it's not friction. Tires are sticky, and adhesion is surface area dependant. Tires get stickier when they are warm/hot, wider tires cause more rolling friction, which heat the tire up faster, which cause the tire to get stickier.

[bofh]

A. How have I redefined the question? Don't waffle with the answer to this.

You brought up an radically different style of tire, that couldn't be put on automobile, for a reason that had nothing if little to do with the width of the tire. Bike tires are not "normal tires" And bringing up that extreme makes you look like very much you're changing the question from "why are sports cars tire wider than normal tires?" to "Why are sports car tires wider than Bicycle tires?"

B. I just knew you'd mention those wheels, although yes they are round circles, they are fundamentally different. Neither car tires, nor the bike tires I mentioned (which are similar to car tires but at a different scale) are solid disks - which are used for an entirely different purpose. Who's redefining the question?

You must have missed the "BTW" I'll put it in bold next time. The tires I mentioned used for land speed attempts, (a valid form of motorsport) are solid for many reasons. I just wanted to remind you that very thin tires have found their way into motorsport. Oh, since I'm a nice guy, I won't mention all the square circles I've seen.

C. Tell us what answer you have in mind, oh great one. Or would you rather keep this a "secret" and pretend as though you have special knowledge? Now obviously you have something different in mind than what I've suggested - and I know that nothing of what I've suggested is incorrect, although perhaps not complete. Whatever reason you have for it that I have not already mentioned, cannot be THE reason for why wider tires are used on race cars. At best it would be one of the most important reasons - yet still only a contributing factor of a set of factors.

I'll grant that my wording of the question was too vague. I assumed that it would be clear enough that the answer was physics related to surface area. Since I lead off with the friction/surface area explaination

It was the reason quoted to me by two different tire engineers from two different tire companies. And yes, they weren't quite that wordy in answering me

[MrMag]

bofh+miscue=

my brain hurts now........damn you silly smart kids.

[flyinasian016]

Nerds



J/k, you guys are smart.. Im just stupid, no racial jokes please

[Miscue]

You brought up an radically different style of tire, that couldn't be put on automobile, for a reason that had nothing if little to do with the width of the tire. Bike tires are not "normal tires" And bringing up that extreme makes you look like very much you're changing the question from "why are sports cars tire wider than normal tires?" to "Why are sports car tires wider than Bicycle tires?"

I agree, it's radically different when you're thinking about today's cars.

The thought on the bicycle tire came from this:
<img src="http://www.hfmgv.org/exhibits/showroom/1908/tsm2.jpg">

And I think that some racing tires are also radically different from tradtional tires, in a similar way.

What I was alluding to... is the question: Why did we go from a tire like the one on the model-T, progressing to the ordinary car tire, and then the race car tire - which there are many kinds of with different applications. Looking at the transition, the older tire had short-comings, and there are some parallels as to why we go from that bike-like tire, to the modern car tire, and finally high-performance, special application tires. I really was not trying to throw in a red-herring, but rather add one extra line of thought.

I was waiting for someone to say, well a bike tire is different. Well, why is it different? It makes you think of things other than a round piece of rubber, and rather how it is constructed. The point is, although they are all round - there is something structurally different about all of these tires... and I think that's a place to start looking, as far as figuring out why friction is independent from surface area contact - yet there is a different amount of traction.