Need a sound system for my business.

[hostage]

Hey guys,
I am curious if any of yall have any suggestions on an economic sound system for my business. We are wanting to play techno music in the entrance to get our customers pumped up. We are a gaming facility.
Thanks,
Doron

[mcveighr]

http://www.bose.com/

[Bluestrike_2]

Bose, sure.....

Anyone that knows good sound knows Bose is garbage, I trully feel sorry for
those that have wasted their money on anything Bose makes. It's all marketing.

GO HERE FIRST : BOSE FAQ: http://home.earthlink.net/~busenitz/bs.html

Like many large corporations, Bose has sometimes taken legal action to protect its reputation and patents. In some cases, this can be seen as the dark side to their marketing efforts --- not only do they disseminate positive information about Bose, but they also attack sources of negative information, as well as other speaker manufacturers. Besides suing Consumers Reports for their negative review, as mentioned in the last section, some other instances cited on the newsgroups include:

*Bose sued Theil to prevent them from naming their speakers with a .2, since Bose also named one of their speakers with a .2, and Bose felt that this might lead consumers to confuse Bose with Theil. Anyone familiar with the Bose and Theil brand names, and the vast differences in their target audience, considers this extremely unlikely.

*Bose sued Speaker Builder magazine for publishing the specifications of a bandpass enclosure that Bose claimed infringed on their patents. Most of those who read Speaker Builder consider this suit unjustified, and many still hold a grudge against Bose accordingly.

*Bose sued Cambridge Sound Works for their claim that they offered "Better Sound Than Bose For Half the Price." Bose also claimed that some of Cambridge's speakers resembled Bose speakers. For the record, the newsgroup participants generally rate Cambridge ahead of Bose.

*In the example that hits closest to home, after a student posted a negative opinion about Bose on the internet, Bose wrote a letter of complaint and, as a result, the student was called before the Dean, fortunately with no adverse consequences. (Unfortunately, after the first posting of this FAQ, one regular nuisance pro-Bose poster decided to emulate this behavior.)

[There was a lawsuit during the summer of '96 between Bose and Harman International/JBL, the former suing the latter for selling a speaker system that bore resemblance to the Bose AM-5 system. Harman International won 2 of 3 counts; they can manufacture and sell the loudspeaker system. They were not able to declare the Bose "Acoustimass" patent invalid. It should be noted that this is what I have heard second-hand. If any of this is inaccurate, please let me know -JAB]

Some people hold a special hatred of Bose simply because of their unusually litigious behavior. You may wish to factor this in when people tell you that "Bose sucks!" --- the Bose legal department as well as their rather over-reaching marketing claims may be having an influence on such opinions, separate from the true quality of the speakers.

Listening is key, and this section will provide a few pointers on how to listen correctly and effectively.

To begin with, it helps to be aware of human psychology and how this can bias your perceptions. Some of these include:

Expectations. If you expect Bose to sound good, it is likely to sound good. Vice versa, if you expect Bose to sound bad, it is likely to sound bad. Try to keep an open mind. Better yet, try to compare speakers without knowing which brands you are listening to. In this sense, the less you know about the speaker you're listening to, the better.

Second Speaker Sounds Best. In a comparison of two items, people tend to prefer the second item. This is one of the bases of the Pepsi challenge --- present the Pepsi second. This effect is sometimes used by dealers to favor a specific speaker.

The Louder Speaker Sounds Best. In a comparison of two speakers, people tend to to prefer the louder one. Of course, this is not true if the loudness difference is large. However, small differences in loudness are not perceived as differences in loudness --- rather the louder speaker is perceived as "better." This effect is sometimes used by dealers to favor a specific speaker. This effect can be minimized by demoing speakers at a variety of different volume levels --- fiddle with the volume control as you listen!

The Speaker with more Bass and Treble Sounds Better. In a comparison of two speakers, people tend to prefer the one with more bass and treble. Again, like loudness, slight differences are not perceived as due to frequency response differences --- the increase in bass and treble is perceived as better. While increased bass and treble sounds better in the short run, it can become fatiguing in the long ran. Some speaker manufacturers build a slight contour into their speakers to help them sound more impressive in short casual demos, but the purchaser drawn in by this technique often lives to regret their decision. This effect is also sometimes used by dealers to favor a specific speaker. Playing with the bass and treble controls, and varying the volume (perceived frequency balance changes with volume), can help overcome this effect. If you find that, for some reason, you actually prefer increased bass and treble, most receivers have a loudness switch, and bass and treble controls, which can accommodate your tastes. However, if the bass and treble boosts are built into the speakers, it is nearly impossible to cancel them exactly using bass and treble controls if you later find this contouring tiresome.

Room placement. The sound of a speaker is greatly influenced by its location in the room, and its interactions with a room's acoustics. The sound is also influenced by listener position and listener height. For example, most speakers sound best if the tweeter is at the same height as the listener's ears, or slightly lower. While most speakers are designed to sit some distance from walls and other other obstacles, a few are designed for placement near or against walls --- these are usually smaller speakers using the wall for bass reinforcement. When placing speakers for demo, the dealer should know and follow the manufacturer's recommended placement guidelines.

Mood. In particular, it is more difficult to judge when nervous or under pressure.

Other factors. Color, size, styling, lighting, etc. can affect your judgements. I have even heard of dealers using small surround sound speakers --- used properly, listeners will not perceive the additional separate speakers, but will instead perceive the main speakers as better.

The only way to ensure a completely neutral assessment is a double-blind test, where neither the listener nor the conductor of the test knows which speaker is being heard, and where the speakers are heard in exactly the same location driven by exactly the same equipment. Unfortunately, a proper double-blind test is out the realm of practical possibility in most cases.

To summarize, while most dealers are honest, a few use human psychology to push specific speakers, the ones which earn them the most money, or perhaps the speakers that the salesperson honestly prefers, although their tastes may differ from yours. Even when a dealer is not purposely trying to bias the customer towards a particular speaker, it is possible and likely for non-sonic aspects to greatly influence judgements of sound quality. Being aware of possible bias factors, as listed above, can help save you from making some common mistakes.

When auditioning speakers, its vital that you be familiar with the music. In other words, BRING YOUR OWN MUSIC. If you allow the dealer to choose the audition music, they may choose music which flatters the speakers in question. At the very least, if the dealer uses unfamiliar discs, you will have no idea what the music should sound like, and thus you will have no way to distinguish the sound quality of the disc from the sound quality of the speakers.

For myself, I try to bring one or two really good sounding CDs to test for the ultimate capabilities of the speakers --- but don't be surprised if CDs that sound good on your current speakers turn out to be mediocre on better speakers, and that CDs which sound mediocre on low quality speakers turn out to sound excellent on high quality speakers. In other words, if you've never heard your CDs on first-rate speakers, don't be surprised if your sonic judgements change as you hear them on more and more speakers. I also try to bring several CDs with known sonic flaws --- harsh treble, slight distortion on loud passages, tape hiss, maybe even some 78 transfers with surface noise ---- to see whether the speaker exposes those flaws, while still bringing out the better features of the music, so that the overall sound is still enjoyable.

You might also want to bring a CD containing lots of low frequencies, such as pipe organ music, to test the low frequency behavior of the speaker. The biggest flaw with most speakers, especially smaller and less expensive speakers, is either a lack of low bass or a poor quality low bass, in that the bass has a one-note thumping quality, instead of a continuous range of well-defined bass frequencies. If you can't afford the cost or room (true high-quality low bass requires large speakers and large rooms in which to play them) for a speaker with true high-quality deep bass, you need to determine whether the bass response is satisfactory on the types of music you listen to most often. Of course, when it comes to bass, some people prefer enormous quantities to quality, and I wish those people would stop driving by my house.

Having established some common pitfalls, now let us describe the proper set-up for listening.

Placement. In most cases, the speakers should be placed well away from walls and other speakers. Any nearby object or surface can affect the sound quality of a speaker. This is especially critical in terms of bass response --- speakers near walls or, especially, in corners will have more bass, although the quality of the bass can be worse, since the bass is reinforced at some frequencies and canceled at others, resulting in a uneven bass response. Some speakers, especially small speakers, are specifically designed to be placed near walls, and use the bass reinforcement as part of their design.

The best demos are relaxed, preferably in familiar surroundings, such as your own home.

Leave plenty of time. First impression are often wrong. Any change in sound is often perceived as an improvement at first, and only extended listening will tell for sure whether the change is for the better, the worse, or just different.

The speakers should be hooked up separately --- they should not be wired through a main switcher box. With more than two or three switches, most commercial switcher boxes are notoriously poor in sound quality, and will tend to make all speakers sound much worse than they should, and may obscure important differences between speakers. The store can use a *high-quality* switch between two or three speakers for the purposes of blind testing, but this is quite rare. If a store complains that it is too much trouble to wire the speakers individually, there are other stores which do. I've seen stores tediously and methodically disconnect and remove one set of speakers, and connect a second set of speakers, so that the two speakers are compared using the exact same system and in the exact same location.

Sources:

http://www.google.com/search?q=why+is+bose+garbage%3F&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

http://www.google.com/search?q=bose+sucks&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

http://www.google.com/search?q=bose+lies&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

http://www.liquidtheater.com/editorials/56

http://www.perrymarshall.com/marketing/bose.htm

** Some people in the speaker business don't like Bose. Bring up the subject in a bar full of audio engineers and you'll get an earful of epithets and insults. Kind of like mentioning Keanu Reeves in a room full of aspiring actors.


**** There are two reasons for that. First, the company is wildly successful. Bose is often the first brand consumers think of when someone says "speakers," and irritates designers at competing companies. Second - its designs violate all kinds of industry conventions, and Bose speakers do not always perform well according to the traditional criteria many speaker engineers consider important.*


**** Simply put, Bose does not build the speaker that a typical acoustical engineer wants. They build the speaker that a butcher, baker or candlestick maker wants to buy. Their products are packaged brilliantly - not from an engineer's point of view, but from a customer's point of view. That's why they're one of the biggest companies in the business.


**** Consider the Bose Wave Radio. After people hear the story about the acoustic wave guide and integrated signal processing, it never occurs to them that this thing is a glorified boombox.*


***** For example, their acoustic wave guide is valuable, not because it suspends the laws of physics for never-before-achieved bass response or some such thing, but because it creates a story for Paul Harvey and the rest of the advertising department to tell.


**** The waveguide is not better, it's just different. And different is the key.* Bose commands a lot more money for this product - more than almost everyone else out there.* That really upsets engineers who know this stuff is not magic.*

Let's mosey on over to www.avsforum.com and do a search on Bose:

==========

It's not the experience itself that is bad. Someone that knows what good systems sound like can spot the deficiencies, but the average listener probably can't. You could live with a half-assed Bose system and be happy.

What grates on people who know is two things:

* the *price* they charge for their cheapo gear.
* the marketing that convinces people that Bose is actually better than other gear.
* Just go look. And not at RatShack or BestBuy.

You could spend the same amount of money and get a much better system. But it's your money; no skin off my nose.

The second point, otoh, is a direct insult to my system and that of every audiophile. *That's* what really gets us worked up.

Basically, bringing up Bose on a forum of audiophiles is inciting a riot. Against you.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=457172&highlight=Bose

Don't forget, they don't publish specs and prefer to believe in the "psychoacoustic" characteristics of their speakers. It's not science, it's religion.

They're clever about their Bose Stores... with a dedicated room carefully set up to promote their speakers. Everybody else could learn a thing or two from that.

Box Only Stereo Extra
Buy Other Stereo Equipment
Better Off Somewhere Else
No Highs... No Lows.... It must be Bose

NOW:

For some good, strong advice(besides stay away from Bose):

Go to http://www.avsforum.com and ask for help. Everyone one of use over there is more qualified than the majority(no disrespect intended) of the people here. Good luck!

[Bluestrike_2]

On another note, Bose will probably try and sue me for slander or something....

They already did that before, look in the Bose FAQ...


There are soo many other choices available, all of which are MUCH better than Bose.

For instance, you have Onyko, Outlaw, Yamaha, Marantz[more expensive], Klipsch, etc.

Get a good receiver, and a good set of speakers, or sets of speakers. Good cable(Not Monster).

If you really want to get involved, I could probably try and help you out a bit more. However, so could almost everyone over at http://www.avsforum.com

http://www.avsforum.com

http://www.outlawaudio.com

http://www.onkyo.com

http://www.yamaha.com

http://www.marantz.com

I'm sure I've missed MANY. Thats just a starting point.

Are you going for inwall/inceling, bookshelves, etc?

In Wall and In Ceiling - Atlantic Technology Inc. and Triad, by far. Much higher sound quality.
than the cheap ones in your local Radioshack. Again, AVS can help...

Searches over there are your best friend. Good luck!

[ASDadam]

Get an old Marantz tubed reciever off ebay. Like a 2245 or a 4300 Quad reciever if you want to set up around 8 speakers. These offer incredible clairity and sound quality and you can find one off ebay for under 300. And i'm sorry, but the old jog dial and the backlights with the stainless front is just plain sexy.

[Miscue]

On another note, Bose will probably try and sue me for slander or something....

They already did that before, look in the Bose FAQ...


There are soo many other choices available, all of which are MUCH better than Bose.

For instance, you have Onyko, Outlaw, Yamaha, Marantz[more expensive], Klipsch, etc.

Get a good receiver, and a good set of speakers, or sets of speakers. Good cable(Not Monster).

If you really want to get involved, I could probably try and help you out a bit more. However, so could almost everyone over at http://www.avsforum.com

http://www.avsforum.com

http://www.outlawaudio.com

http://www.onkyo.com

http://www.yamaha.com

http://www.marantz.com

I'm sure I've missed MANY. Thats just a starting point.

Are you going for inwall/inceling, bookshelves, etc?

In Wall and In Ceiling - Atlantic Technology Inc. and Triad, by far. Much higher sound quality.
than the cheap ones in your local Radioshack. Again, AVS can help...

Searches over there are your best friend. Good luck!

Hehe... it makes me cringe everytime someone speaks highly of Bose, or makes a big deal how "this car/house has Bose speakers!" I'd proudly rip those out and leave them on the curb.

[Gunga]

Just to toss more fuel on the anti-Bose fire... Courtesy of http://www.intellexual.net/bose.html

[Muzikman]

Listen to BlueStrike, he is a smart man

That being said, if you want to play mostly techno, you do not need a real good system. Let's face it, techno is not the most pleasent music to listen to. But what techno does have is a wide frequency range. This means three amps, three sets of speakers and crossovers are a must. Break it down into Highs, mids and lows. Also, speaker placement is important.

[thereal_JT]

go with a yamaha receiver and some jbl speakers.

receivers--dont know how much you want it to do so here is a list of yamaha receivers

http://www.220giftcenter.com/stereo.htm

speakers--kind of pricey but the sound that comes out of these little speakers is amazing

http://www.jbl.com/home/products/pro...STU&sCatId=BFS

[PyRo]

It's a buisness, which means that most of the people in there probably won't be listening too much and won't notice/care if he is using a $2,000 system or a $300 sony minisystem.

[Hasty8]

So Pyro, I guess this means you'll be going with the Bose, right?

[PyRo]

If I wanted a cheap system and Bose cost about half of what it does sure I would go with them. Their are plenty of worse speakers out their. Bose has an identity chrisis, they are inferior quality to other products in the price range but they want to be the best out there, kind of like how a civic with a big muffler isn't a race car although some tend to think it is. If bose cut it's prices in half people would stop complaining because you would be getting good speakers for what you payed.
They are playing techno music in the enterance so most people won't be listening for very long or paying attention to the music. I don't see why you would want to go drop a ton of money on a stereo for that especially in a small buisness where funds might be tight.