Ethanol: The future is now.

[slade]

a collegue runs his Mercedes in the same manner, but uses petro-diesel in the primary tank.

Biodiesel and petro-diesel also have problems with gelling at low temperatures. Winter petro-diesel is No. 2 diesel mixed with No. 1 diesel (or even kerosene).

High percentage biodiesel might work year round in southern climates, but more northern users are limited to lower percentage biodiesel in the colder months or must resort to using additives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerosene

http://www.howstuffworks.com/question105.htm

he probably mixes diesel and biodiesel depending on the weather... although strangely its been warm enough here that it probably hasnt been necessary. there hasnt been a day yet when snow has stayed on the ground.

[SlartyBartFast]

i was thinking if it burned easier, people could start with it in cold weather

Here's another fork in the discussion:

For kerosene to be used in a spark ignition engine, the kerosene vaporises and ignites at higher temperatures than gasoline and needs to be warmed. Making kerosene the alternative hot engine/temperature fuel.

For kerosene to be used in a compression ignition engine, the kerosene lignites at lower temperatures than diesel. Making kerosene the alternative cold engine/temperature fuel.

Another note: burning kerosene in either type of engine is most likely illegal. As kerosene is not sold, and therefor not taxed, for use in on-road vehicles. Just as running home heating "oil" in your diesel car will get you in trouble with the taxman.

Some good pictures of gelled biodiesel:

http://www.wvofuels.com/2005/12/15/cold-weather-biodiesel-additives-and-anti-gelling-compounds/

[hitech]

I'll attribute your lapse to lack of caffeine. But, the carbon in petrochemicals is also burned to produce power.

Hydrogen + oxygen = H2O
Carbon + oxygen = CO2

I do know that carbon burns in an organic fuel. However, I didn't think that provided any significant power (compared to the hydrogen). However, my chemistry class was almost thirty years ago and memory is the second thing to go.

Regardless, all organic fuels produce undesirable waste products. CO2 if nothing else. Hydrogen does not (only H20 as most of you know). And the authors of the above website have a hydrogen "producer" using solar power with a manageable amount of solar panels. Right now the price isn't really cost effective ($7k-10k for the entire system), but if they can get into production prices will come down. Considering the lack of waste products from hydrogen burning, I believe it is the future. How far into the future is debatable. But, one of the biggest hurtles, safety and storage, has now been solved. That is a MAJOR step forward.

BTW, did you check out the link?

[FactsOfLife]

a collegue runs his Mercedes in the same manner, but uses petro-diesel in the primary tank.

Biodiesel and petro-diesel also have problems with gelling at low temperatures. Winter petro-diesel is No. 2 diesel mixed with No. 1 diesel (or even kerosene).

High percentage biodiesel might work year round in southern climates, but more northern users are limited to lower percentage biodiesel in the colder months or must resort to using additives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerosene

http://www.howstuffworks.com/question105.htm

There are numerous methods of anti-gelling diesel fuels.

We run three single cylinder diesels on straight biodiesel, with anti gel additives and one ancient 4 holer on BD with anti gel additives at the local small ski hill.

believe me, it gets plenty cold here and these engines are required to run all the time.

we have zero issues with gelling using the proper agents.

[devildog]

anyone who reads carcraft (only the best magazine ever), about 2 months ago they put out an awesome article where they built a high horsepower engine cheaply that ran on ethanol, or whatever that new e85 stuff coming out is.

[SlartyBartFast]

BTW, did you check out the link?

Which one?

[hitech]

Which one?

This one.

[SlartyBartFast]

This one.

That one looks so stupid it's laughable.

Those tiny tanks WILL NOT get you far. <<Hmm, they're hydride tanks, so I'm not sure of the capacity.

Refer back to Bjjb99's post: http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...5&page=4&pp=40

And from another post, if you're going to put enough solar cells on your roof to power a car, you'd far better off using the electricity in your home. Not using it to run an electric car or even worse inefficiently converting the electricity to hydrogen for a hydrogen car...

And with those 80W panels that are being sold on that web site, consider how long you need to be generating hydrogen to drive a car....

[hitech]

That one looks so stupid it's laughable.

Those tiny tanks WILL NOT get you far.

Refer back to Bjjb99's post: http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...5&page=4&pp=40

And from another post, if you're going to put enough solar cells on your roof to power a car, you'd far better off using the electricity in your home. Not using it to run an electric car or even worse inefficiently converting the electricity to hydrogen for a hydrogen car...

It's anything but stupid and laughable. They have SOLVED the SAFETY and STORAGE problem with hydrogen. That's a BIG accomplishment.

And with four of the new tanks they are getting about 450 miles with a corvette! I'd say that is plenty far. And the volume displaced by the tanks is about the same as a gas tank.

The number and size of the solar panels is not that large. Many people put those on RVs to charge their batteries. You won't do much to supplement your house with a few 80 watt panels.

And finally, I never claimed it was economically feasible. Quite the opposite. However, most new technology is not, at first. They have solved the storage and safety problem associated with hydrogen. They have created a small enough and simple enough home powered hydrogen plant. They can EASILY convert existing vehicles. It produces almost NO POLLUTION. The economics are their last hurtle.

[CaptaiN_JacK]

you know, E-85 is great for the performance industry, higher octane for a cheaper price.

can definatally run higher compression ration without worry of spark knock.

Most people already know this, but the Indy Racing League has switched to Ethanol:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?section=auto&id=2458427

http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/news/story?seriesId=1&id=2612983

They have solved the storage and safety problem associated with hydrogen. They have created a small enough and simple enough home powered hydrogen plant. They can EASILY convert existing vehicles. It produces almost NO POLLUTION. The economics are their last hurtle.

The economics (and infrastructure) are their biggest and most difficult hurdles. Everything else they've accomplished so far was a piece of cake compared to what the hydrogen industry (or lack thereof) will face.

[SlartyBartFast]

They have solved the storage and safety problem associated with hydrogen. They have created a small enough and simple enough home powered hydrogen plant.

I highly doubt the claims of that web site.

5 * 80 W = 400 W.
What's the power requirement for your average car?
100 hp = 75 kW

So, for every hour of operation of a 100 hp car you'd need 188 hours of perfect sunlight driving those panels at maximum output. I'd like to know what electrical power was used and how long it took

They seem to be packaging off-the-shelf components with vaporware and promises.

Their claims of "virtually no cost" are criminal considering the cost of the conversion package and the required panels. Just the panels will set you back $425.00 * 5 for the rediculously low output minimum. That 2000$ would have bought a lot of gasoline.

And NO POLLUTION?

How do you think solar panels are manuafactured? The toxicity of metal hydrides.

[hitech]

I highly doubt the claims of that web site.

5 * 80 W = 400 W.
What's the power requirement for your average car?
100 hp = 75 kW

The average car uses WAY less that 100 hp to cruise down the freeway at 65 mph. Many cars can only produce 100 hp at full throttle, and how often does the average person drive at full throttle?

I highly doubt the claims of that web site.
So, for every hour of operation of a 100 hp car you'd need 188 hours of perfect sunlight driving those panels at maximum output. I'd like to know what electrical power was used and how long it took

So, you would need way less than that. They point out that you use it faster than you can produce it. However, you can produce it all "day", and you don't typically drive all day. And you can always fall back to gasoline.

They seem to be packaging off-the-shelf components with vaporware and promises.

The tanks are their main contribution. Since I've never heard of this idea before I call it substantial. If someone else has done this before...

Their claims of "virtually no cost" are criminal considering the cost of the conversion package and the required panels. Just the panels will set you back $425.00 * 5 for the ridiculously low output minimum. That $2000 would have bought a lot of gasoline.

No cost is referring to on going cost. And I never said it was remotely economically feasible.

And NO POLLUTION?

How do you think solar panels are manufactured? The toxicity of metal hydrides.

Those two things I know nothing about. I would assume recycling of the tanks, but solar panels I know nothing about in terms of manufacture. For that matter, I don't know what pollution results from the manufacture of their tanks. Considering the pollution produced by the average vehicle over it's lifetime, there is a lot of breathing room (pun intended ). However, anyone feel free to post links to the waste products generated when manufacturing solar panels or metal hydrides. That is what this thread is about.

[SlartyBartFast]

The average car uses WAY less that 100 hp to cruise down the freeway at 65 mph. Many cars can only produce 100 hp at full throttle, and how often does the average person drive at full throttle?

So, you would need way less than that. They point out that you use it faster than you can produce it. However, you can produce it all "day", and you don't typically drive all day.

Ok.

10 hp = 7.5 kW

Still need 19 hours of PERFECT charging for every hour you expect to drive.

Actually, we both effectively show the stupid hype of that website. What is the point of putting 15,000 dollars worth of equipment into a Corvette if you have to drive it at electric scooter speeds in order to drive 300 miles after waiting two days for the thing to fill up?

Why? because people immediately go: OH MY GAWD! A CORVETTE! It goes 300 mile on hydrogen!

When the reality is, that the Corvette is just part of an image boost and the smoke and mirrors of wild claims.

Count me as a MAJOR skeptic on a viable hydrogen economy. I've seen waste vegetable oil, European countries already sell (or shortly will) B10 as standard diesel, and E10 will become the minimum in Canada even under the conservatives timid environmental plans and we know that E85 is viable.

Solar energy to create either vegetable oils or sugars for processing into liquid fuels that require ZERO new infrastructure for the transport and distribution will always be cheaper than any hydrogen alternative.

And it's probably better to look into hybrid and battery electric to replace liquid fuel if necessary. The inefficiencies of creating hydrogen can't compete with the energy efficiencies of batteries or capacitors.

Think I'd like one of these over a corvette anyday:
http://www.teslamotors.com/index.php?js_enabled=1

or one of these:

http://www.venturifetish.fr/fetish.html

[hitech]

What is the point of putting 15,000 dollars worth of equipment into a Corvette if you have to drive it at electric scooter speeds in order to drive 300 miles after waiting two days for the thing to fill up?

I'm not sure where you are getting electric scooter speeds (unless that is a reference to 10hp). And it is $7K-10K, not $15K. And the current hydrogen generator takes 48 hours per tank to fill. So, you only get 350 miles in 8 days. But, as I've already said, it is NOT CURRENTLY ECONOMICALLY FEASIBLE. But I still believe it is the future. It is the purest burning element.

[geekwarrior]