Ancient Warfare astounds me

[Carbon]

I cant imagine the logistics it takes to command legions of troops. No flippin' radio! The difficuly of communication and the super dense "fog of war" those ancient peoples had to deal with. Consider actuall battle itself. if you're not gonna get stuck with arrows or spears, imagine getting literally gutted and the trampled to death.

[CaptaiN_JacK]

I was thinking about this too. How can you know good guy from bad army when you are engaged in close combat (sword, axe, etc.) warfare on an open field with 2,000 other guys? Especially before they started using uniforms? Even with uniforms it would be hard to tell who is who when everyone is covered in blood. I would be hacking away at anybody that stepped near me in fear that they were out to to kill me.

And how the heck are you supposed to secure the borders of a country back then? I mean, they didn't have radar and the countries weren't as populated as they are now, so it would be quite possible for a 2,000 man army to sneak into the heart of a country almost undetected.

And one thing that still gets to me is how stupid the Revolutionary/Civil war commanders were. They still used the line formations! Well, not all the time, but still, they should have been a little smarter than that.

[Wheelman]

I too am in awe of it all, but I think in most cases it was more like 20,000 than 2000, in the real big battles anyway

[p u r e e v i l]

For sure.

I've often thought about the way that war use to be. It was simply insane, but truly admirable. Not trying to pick on the person who said that they'd be hacking away at everyone in fear that they'd be killed, but often times (depending on the army) you were trained from birth to fight and how to act in certain situations. Example: Samurai, Romans, Greek, etc. Granted, not everyone kept their cool, but you know what I mean.

As far as the Civil War goes, the movies glorify their battle techniques a little too much. Some commanders did have their troops walk out into fields in straight lines, but only as the enemy was being bombarded by cannons, etc. from the rear of the enemies column. Other times, there were trenches and other tactics that weren't so outgoing. I'm not saying that there wasn't a lot of battles that involved you standing out in the middle of nowhere and shooting at one another, but more often then not, there were options. Atleast that's what I learned from the three years I reennacted, read and studied the Civil War.

Still, there is a question in my mind.

In your opinion, who do you think would have won a battle? Samurai or Roman soldiers? I know the number of Romans might have been two to one or more, but logically speaking, if the environment was in the favor of the Samurai...

Needless to say, I do wish that war got no more complicated then the Civil War. Weapon wise, etc. Or maybe it could be semi-retroish like in the Post Man. Horses with Machine Gun Cavalry men. Baha!

[brianlojeck]

;-) I wargame in my spare time, so this is a topic near and dear to my heart... (although I do mostly sci-fi, so I'm not as up to date on ancient tactics as many others...)

They used the line formation for two main reasons. It helps to keep order and keep track of your men, because they had no radios (as was pointed out). it also helps keep people from running away when they are getting bombarded by cannons because you are shoulder to shoulder with someone who isn't going to let you run away and let him get hit. Remember, cannonballs don't usually explode back then, they would bounce along the ground, breaking everyone's shins and knees. Imagine having to march to a fight stepping over the crying/broken bodies of your comrades?

Most battles (in the line formation days) were not won by killing the other side, but by routing them, making them run away in terror and breaking their formations. This is one of the reasons the Civil war had such high casualties, because neither side really had anywhere to run, especially near the end of the war when the north was invading and everyone was starving.

also, many troops from these times were NOT trained from birth, they were conscripts (draftees with less training and poor equipment) who only fought because their own commanders would kill them if they didn't. Army's would ride into town, kidnap all the able-bodied men, and put them to work. That was part of what made the English Longbow such a feared weapon, because it made these conscripts a force to be feared with little training relative to other weapons.

as for the last post, the Romans would win, because they had unit tactics down cold. Samurai were honorable soldiers, who would fight other samurai in single combat. the romans would poke them with spears and block them with sheilds and shoot them with arrows. Now, romans vs. the entire japanese army, I couldn't say... ;-)

[SAW]

Imagine fighting all day, in the sun, with all that armor and gear. That would be a day at the office.

[WenULiVeUdiE]

And one thing that still gets to me is how stupid the Revolutionary/Civil war commanders were. They still used the line formations! Well, not all the time, but still, they should have been a little smarter than that.

Imagine you are at a ball full of the most sophisticated people you have ever met. You walk in with a T shirt and shorts and havent taken a shower in a few days. While everyone else is wearing a Tux. That is what Gorilla warfare was to the British (the US is guy in the T)

Some people find it amazing that military training started at a very young age, specifically commanding. It took a lot of skill to be able to command troops back then.

[brianlojeck]

and a lot of that skill was of the abusive type. ;-)

as an example, George Washington, for all of his FoundingFatherlyness, was a tall man (over 6' if I recall) with red hair (under the wig) and a booming voice, and a very gruff personality in combat. Imagine a large man on a large horse screaming at you and kicking you to get back into formation as the British took aim.

another reason for the british shoulder-to-shoulder 3-line formation was speed of firing. In formation the british could let loose as many as 3 volleys per minute, and these were massive volleys of huge numbers of rounds going downrange.

The americans may have been sneakier, but they could not have approached the sheer destructive ability of the british line. We were sneaky because we had to be, not because it was better...

[sharpshooter1286]

plus in the civil war, the tactics were wayy ahead of the strategies. those .58 cal rifles would blow ur head off, and if they hit a bone they would shatter the entire bone all around. real nasty stuff.

[Load SM5]

Imagine fighting all day, in the sun, with all that armor and gear. That would be a day at the office.

I've done it. I was a medieval reenactor for 12 years or so. I tried to make my armor as close to dead on as possible. After a full day of fighting it was easy to lie down for a while. Most of the more civilized armies not only formed lines but columns so if a person became too exhausted to be an effective fighter, they could fall back off the line and a fresh soldier could step up.

[SAW]

Very cool stuff Load. I'd like to see something along those lines.

[Bluestrike_2]

The Greeks.....

Their real fighting power was with the Spartans. Other than the Athens city-state, most others looked up to and admired the Spartans. They are a true example, in my opinion, of ancient warfare. Let's look an Thermopylae Pass in the war against the Persians.

Around 30 city-states met in Corinth to form an army, and navy, to defend Greece. The Spartans, along Athenian Thermistokles for the strategy, were to lead.

They knew they had to delay the Persian army, and the knew that Thermopylae Pass was the one which they would take(for many reasons, food, hunger, starvation, time, etc.). In the past a fort and a large wall was built there. The Spartans rebuilt it. They wanted to defeat them at sea, and starve them on land. But everything took a turn for the worst.

The Persians were early. Xerxes wait four days for them to leave after announcing himself. The fifth day, he attacked. First were the Medes, who were defeated after breaking apart to chase the Spartans who were "retreating." Then Xerxes sent his Immortals, who failed(his finest troops).

Then, treachery struck. A man named Ephialtes betrayed the Greeks and told of a trail to get around the Greek army. King Leonidas learned of this, and sent the other Greek soldiers home. He, the Spartans,Thesbians, and Thesbans stayed. No more than a thousand. In the end however, no more than 300 remained. King Leonidas was killed. A small group of Spartans fought to his body, recovered, and went back to the small hill the Spartans were fighting from. King Xerxes offered to spare them in return for his body. To which the response was, a famous quote today,
"A spartan leaves the field with his shield or upon it."
Eventually they were all killed. However, they bought the time needed.

Ok, that's a HUGE summary. In all honesty, read a book that discusses the Greece-Persian war.

Yes, it truly is remarkable. Also, I hope I got it all right. I haven't really read up on it in a while....

[Load SM5]

Read Steven Pressfield's book Gates of Fire if you want a good book about Thermopylae. Really good read if your interested in the Greek warrior.

[CrimsonTurkey]

One group that always have been crazy enough to win to me were the Scots, and we're proud of it.

A routine ambush involved sleeping in below freezing tempuratures in a kilt, I can tell you, it gets drafty in there when you are awake and it's 10-15*F I can't imagine sleeping like that. What always gets to me is, so the story goes, one man was ridiculed to the point of deserting because he used a pillow made of snow in the night... softy!

As for getting hot in all that armour. Yep, I've done it too. Luggin that stuff around for hours can be a bit of a chore.

Alot of the actual command aspect happened before the battle, with changes to the plan rarely being implemented due to the messengers being killed en route to the other officers.

[Willystyle21]

communication and strategy

No radios but you had the commanders shouting orders down the chain, the archers stayed togeather, the calvery stayed togeather, and so forth. Simple really, just kill the people that looked different than you. Was the same for both sides, only tech involved was weapons and in most cases was relatively the same. About the Samurai vs. the Romans. Personally love the code of honor but I think a Roman Phalanx wipps up on just about anybody. Just think of it this way, the first tank. Had armor and the ability to hit something that couldn't hit it. 20 guys with door shields and pikes.