Gasoline Prices

[AcemanPB]

Fuel cells, yeah right. Gasoline is just too easy. You pump the stuff straight out of the ground and all the energy is already there, stored in the Hydrogen-Carbon bonds. Even if everything went to fuel cells in the near future most of the energy used to store the hydrogen would come from electricty produced by plants burning fossil fuels. I hate to be the pessimist, but I'm sure we won't find and use an alternative to fossil fuels until we absolutely have to(read - we run out).

[Lohman446]

Now dont try telling me that fuel cells are not as cost efficient as gasoline motors. My dad is one of the head hanchos around the fuel cell program at CAT and i know quite a bit about it. It would cost the same amount to take water, split it into hydrogen (used to power the fuel cell) and oxygen ( we need this to live....) and then use the hydrogen and some of the oxygen to power the fuel cell. This does a few things for us. The by product is water, which can be used for power later....... and oxygen, which we need to live....
.

A wonderful viewpoint from an engineering standpoint. It takes into account actual costs of doing it. Does it take into account the cost of replacing the already existing infastructure built around gasoline? What about the families that cannot afford a jump in technology - those driving old cars now because they cannot afford a new one. Are we going to run dual infastructures until everyone (or 95% of the people) have upgraded or is the government going to pay for these people to upgrade? We already know that transporation is vital to American lifestyle and there is not mass transporation comparable to Europe. Yes, something needs to be done, but we need to take into consideration the real world problems associated wtih each course of action to make the best possible decision

I agree something needs to be done, to me it would be to find a way that works with what we have now, at least to some degree of backward compatability. Corn can be used for energy - ethanol?? and will work in many of the vehicles already on the road.

[bjjb99]

Fuel Cells -- Operation Costs?

Now dont try telling me that fuel cells are not as cost efficient as gasoline motors. My dad is one of the head hanchos around the fuel cell program at CAT and i know quite a bit about it. It would cost the same amount to take water, split it into hydrogen (used to power the fuel cell) and oxygen ( we need this to live....) and then use the hydrogen and some of the oxygen to power the fuel cell. This does a few things for us. The by product is water, which can be used for power later....... and oxygen, which we need to live....

seriously think about it, the future is in fuel cells, and once the world is ready to accept this, catipiller will become one of the richest companies in the world, the company and its CEO possibly passing Bill Gates and Microsoft.

A sample article about an existing fuel cell vehicle:

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2004/09/kiarsquos_new_s.html

This Kia Sportage has a 152 liter H2 tank and can go about 180 miles between fills. That's about 4.48 miles per gallon of H2. Based on various sources on the net, the current cost of H2 fuel is between $3.00 and $8.00 per gallon. The government goal for H2 fuel is around $1.50 to $2.00 per gallon, depending on who you ask.

So currently, you've got a car that gets about 4.48 miles per gallon using H2 fuel that costs (low end) $3.00 per gallon. That's about $0.67 per mile. Even using the low end of the government goal for H2 fuel prices, you're still looking at around $0.33 per mile.

The same Kia Sportage with a gasoline engine is rated at around 19 miles per gallon. Current gas prices are at around $2.30 per gallon. That's about $0.12 per mile. My truck currently costs around $0.17 per mile in fuel to operate.

Insurance companies claim that the average driver covers around 12000 miles per year. The H2 powered Kia Sportage would have a fuel cost of around $8000 per year (current low end price, low end of government goal would put the cost around $4000 per year). The gasoline powered Kia Sportage would have a fuel cost of around $1440 per year.

I don't have between $2500 and $6500 extra per year to spend on fuel. Perhaps if the US government gave me a $5000 per year tax break for using a fuel cell vehicle I'd consider making the switch.

It is not currently cost-effective for the average US consumer to own and operate an H2 powered fuel cell vehicle. Whenever gas prices rise to around $5.00 to $6.00 per gallon in the US and H2 fuel drops to around $1.50 per gallon, people will start taking a much harder look at H2 fuel cell vehicles as an alternative mode of transportation. I think Europe will likely see H2 fuel cell vehicles in greater numbers before the US does.

BJJB

[Lohman446]

That's about 4.48 miles per gallon of H2. Based on various sources on the net, the current cost of H2 fuel is between $3.00 and $8.00 per gallon.

You bring up interesting points - and this one is alarming. Remember bigger fuel tank = more weight when full = less MPG due to weight. So you are either going to have to have huge fuel tanks, or refuel about 3 times more than you do. Getting 5 MPG, when many "economy" car fuel tanks are about 12 gallons, is not going to be acceptable to many Americans. To me it would mean refueling at least once a day, and quite often two or three times.

[tool]

Last time I checked it was 99.9/liter, so would that put us at ~3.80/gallon? Never been too good with numbers so I could be wrong.

[grw4w34]

On the way back from LA on Sunday we saw some places in Ventura at 2.70 for the cheap stuff.

In SLO its around 2.60 or so.

[deadeye9]

Do what I do:

Keep your eyes closed when you're filling up the gas tank.

[bjjb99]

When gas prices hit around $1.86 a gallon, I learned that the pumps in the local area all cut off automatically when $50.00 is reached. I now have the joy of swiping my credit card through the pump twice per fill up.

BJJB

[RoadDawg]

I just paid 2.49 last night. That was the cheapest I could find.

Just off of Harbor Blvd and the 91 there is a Shell station that has unleaded for $2.35/gallon.

I've seen some stations around here hovering at 2.59+ (even some Arco stations)

[purple]

I drive a mazda protege and get around 32 MPG on the highway, ma drives a car that gets 32 mpg as well. It doesnt hurt so bad for me, but i understand everyone's complaint that tanking up your jeep, etc. costs like 40-60 bucks. I was looking at a Toyota prius, and the main issue i see with hybrid cars is that your driving style GREATLY affects milage. The little diesel VW's are nice too, but they cost twice as much as my mazda.
I think fuel cells are a good idea, as well as hybrid cars. my main concern about hydrogen is the flammibility/explosiveness of it. First of all filling COULD be a dangerous/leaky process. another thing is making sure it wont make every car turn into a ball of fire in a crash.

Purple

edit: Texas is the land of the big truck, but it doesnt bother me, i can zip around those big ole tanks so easy with my little land-missile. The only car i've driven that handles better is a mini cooper.

[SIGSays]

i ended up paying $50 for a tank of gas for my 2k3 4runner...

[amrani]

A sample article about an existing fuel cell vehicle:

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2004/09/kiarsquos_new_s.html

This Kia Sportage has a 152 liter H2 tank and can go about 180 miles between fills. That's about 4.48 miles per gallon of H2. Based on various sources on the net, the current cost of H2 fuel is between $3.00 and $8.00 per gallon. The government goal for H2 fuel is around $1.50 to $2.00 per gallon, depending on who you ask.

So currently, you've got a car that gets about 4.48 miles per gallon using H2 fuel that costs (low end) $3.00 per gallon. That's about $0.67 per mile. Even using the low end of the government goal for H2 fuel prices, you're still looking at around $0.33 per mile.

The same Kia Sportage with a gasoline engine is rated at around 19 miles per gallon. Current gas prices are at around $2.30 per gallon. That's about $0.12 per mile. My truck currently costs around $0.17 per mile in fuel to operate.

Insurance companies claim that the average driver covers around 12000 miles per year. The H2 powered Kia Sportage would have a fuel cost of around $8000 per year (current low end price, low end of government goal would put the cost around $4000 per year). The gasoline powered Kia Sportage would have a fuel cost of around $1440 per year.

I don't have between $2500 and $6500 extra per year to spend on fuel. Perhaps if the US government gave me a $5000 per year tax break for using a fuel cell vehicle I'd consider making the switch.

It is not currently cost-effective for the average US consumer to own and operate an H2 powered fuel cell vehicle. Whenever gas prices rise to around $5.00 to $6.00 per gallon in the US and H2 fuel drops to around $1.50 per gallon, people will start taking a much harder look at H2 fuel cell vehicles as an alternative mode of transportation. I think Europe will likely see H2 fuel cell vehicles in greater numbers before the US does.

BJJB

you, my friend, are forgetting a very importane point. The government suppliments gas prices, that needs to be added into your equation of cost. Also, once more widespread, prices will drop. See if you can research how much gas prices were when gasoline engines wer new. then adjust that for inflation. studies and reasearch show that average prices have dropped, even though it seems high.

For Those Of You To Lazy To Do Your Own Research.

and fuel cells use liquid/slush hydrogen. its still flamable, but not as much as in a gassous form. dont forget, how does a gasoline engine run............ohh, yea thats right, it IGNITES THE FUEL!

[AGD202]

at first i planned on getting a lightning... now im looking into a rice burner cuz gas sucks balls around here... $2.35 and going up


although i have heard that the prices are supposed to go back down to 1.70... get real people when the day gas hits $5.00/gal not a single thing will be going on in this country... the truckers WILL strike and then the econ stops... cuz like some1 said earlier... U BOUGHT IT TRUCKS BROUGHT IT

[nippinout]

[gimp]

I think it's gonna be a while before fuel cells are practical. One of my professors does research in fuel cell technologies. His guess was something like 10 years before they get popular. I guess it's really tricky to interface the fuel cells with stuff. They aren't just like a set of AA batteries that you just plop in there.