proable cause and cops.

[misfit]

a little background info, im 23 and ive with my bro (21) and my fired (21). we live in a college town, and we throw the occiosional party. in about 5 years the house has only been busted once, when a kid was asked to leave and he walked accross campus with a beer, and he was under age. so needless to say we dont let that happen anymore. two parties ago there was a cop scare so we threw everybody out. we didnt get busted but a cop came by and asked to talk to me. he said it is cool if we party just dont let it get out of hand, and dont send 150 poeple out of your front door and windows. well last night we had another party with only like 60 people no proplem we also bord up the windows and handle the noise, nobody can hear us off of our property anyway. there was a cop scare when like 2 cars parked in the fornt and back of our house but nothing happened. a girl who was here has a boyfried who was a cop on duty and he had to convince them not to bust us. he said that they had no prople cause, while the other one said that he could see people in the basement. i fairly certant that having people in the basement is not a crime.

now some questions i realize that it is ilegal to consume alachol under the age of 21 so dont hassle me about that. if the cops knock on the door can i just go outside and talk to them, even if they see people drinking when i open the door, they have no reason to assume that they are underage, do they? can i just not let them in, i know this would prob jsut piss them off, but im curious.there is not a whole lot going on in this town so they kinda have nothing better to do, we never cause any problems and dont get any complaints form neighbors, cause they are here.
ps i have nothing aginst cops

[Creative Mayhem]

Yo Misfit! What's up man! Were you drunk when you posted this? Damn man

I don't know for sure, but they can't just bust you, they do need probable cause. However, they do need proof as well, they can't prove anything without coming in and ID'ng everyone there, and they can't come in unless you let them. I think it was basically just a scare tactic cause your house has been marked as a party house. It's basically a way for them to tone it down without the paperwork or hassle.

[Glickman]

i didnt think there was any state that will allow entry of police without permission with proable cause of underage drinking. i thought i just read something about it trying to be initated in some county as the first trial.

i believe the following are the only reasons they can enter your home:

-Your permission
-Search or Arrest warrent
-Emergencies
+If someone enters your home whos just commited an offense
+ If they believe someone is about to harm someone else

[WicKeD_WaYz]

bro they cant just come in. Not many people understand this and everyone who throws parties needs a headcheck these days. The cops cant just bust in! They will though if you give them an inch. Tape those windows man, turn out the lights, and be quiet. When I throw parties and the cops come, your either inside my house, quiet, or off my property. Around here we call it lockdown. When we see a cop, everyone just parties quieter. You turn out all the lights, make out with a chick, whatever. Meanwhile I go outside, being 18 im responsible for what goes on at my house. This is important too, when you go outside, dont go out the front door. If they look in and see a minor drinking thats probable cause and they will most likely get in despite your efforts to stop them. I go out the back and jump the side gate,(get your buddies inside and out of your backyard, this is another way they come in). Just go up to the cop and tell them you have a few friends over, nobody under 21 is aloud to drink in your house, if anyone under 21 is caught drinking outside, you had nothing to do with it. And tell them politely that under no circumstances are they allowed to come in your house, or backyard. Ask if the neighbors are complaingin about the noise and there reason for being there. If theres a noise problem, fix it. You have to kind of cooperate with cops to throw a party that lasts all night. Dont let any drunk guys throw anything at them or yell anything. They cant just come in your house but they will make it hell for you. Like ive had em sit right off my property and try to bust every underage drinker who leaves(which is usually everyone in the house).

Also get someone you trust on that front door and side gate or w/e. Dont let some drunk kid or scared girl just open the door to the cops, because they can walk right in if anyone opens the door, and once they are in they wont leave. I dunno ive sat in my house with 40 people and locked everything up except one window by my door and the cops stood on my porch for hours banging for like 3 hours. We just laughed at them and taunted em through the window and what not, we were dumb but we wanted to see what would happen. They honestly left after 3 hours and parked down the street. They left me this really threatening note from the Sheriifs dept. though. It was kind of funny. If your down for just waiting it out you can just ignore them, but they'll never go away unless you talk to them politely. Dont give in though cops will BS you all day long so that you let them in. Just stay strong on that no, and after a little while tell them unless your under arrest, your going back inside and for them to leave your property.

Its hard dealin with the cops man but if you throw parties enough eventually you can come to a mutual agreement with them. Like cops dont really try to bust my parties anymore but at the same time I dont let them get out of hand like they used to.

O yea and just a side note. A couple weeks ago I was partying at my best friends house and her house got straight mobbed through the back door in a gang hit and they jumped this one guy REAL bad and stabbed him bad. I couldnt even break it up and I was doing everything I could cuz I know both sides. Anyways thats a whole different story but 10 minutes later the cops basically busted in the front door with this big metal thing. I told em to get the out and they said they could do whatever they wanted because it was an emergency/ dangerous situation or some crap. They didnt really bust anyone just checked out the wreckage from the fight and ended the party a little early. So lesson learned, try not to let any fights go down or the cops will ruin your night.

[cockerkiller68]

Threads like this make me ashamed to be in here.

[Lohman446]

now some questions i realize that it is ilegal to consume alachol under the age of 21 so dont hassle me about that. if the cops knock on the door can i just go outside and talk to them, even if they see people drinking when i open the door, they have no reason to assume that they are underage, do they?

If a reasonable person would beleive said drinkers were under 21 the police at that point they have probable cause to enter and begin detaining people.

[misfit]

If a reasonable person would beleive said drinkers were under 21 the police at that point they have probable cause to enter and begin detaining people.

first off sorry about my grammer, i suck at the english language (and spelling just in case)
the house is usually on lockdown regardless of the rediculous numbers we usually posess, and nobody messes with the cops. i wonder how could they legitimatley assume that people are underage. some people look young, some old but it is just a college croud you know, not like highschoolers or anything. what about them entering our property in general. like if i park my truck at the bottom of the driveway. they cant get their cars up, so they would have to walk up, and if nobody is outside and the noise is controlled can they just come up for the sake of hasseling me. last time when all those people ran, he told me that he didnt even know we were having a party and he turned his spot light on to check out a parked car in the street behind our house that he was sitting on. thats when he saw all those people acting like track stars.

ps what's up mayhem, i live right near the iao now
so if you check the map, you might guess that the school in question is slippery rock
pps sorry for my ramblimatic style of writing

maybe building a bar/stage with taps wanst the best idea, our record is 8 girls dancing on it

[Lohman446]

Reasonable person standard is BS... basically it means unless you have a very good, very agressive attorney the police officer acted reasonably. It sucks, but its how it is. They can come up to your door, and observe when you open it, acting accordingly. Is it fair? No. Should it be legal? Your call. Can it happen? oh yes.

[SlartyBartFast]

Threads like this make me ashamed to be in here.

[SlartyBartFast]

Reasonable person standard is BS... basically it means unless you have a very good, very agressive attorney the police officer acted reasonably. It sucks, but its how it is. They can come up to your door, and observe when you open it, acting accordingly. Is it fair? No. Should it be legal? Your call. Can it happen? oh yes.

Good god man. So, the cops shouldn't enforce the law when they see/hear it being broken?

What's not fair? Dumb enough to have underage drinkers, dumb enough to make too much noise = dumb enough to get caught in my book. Seems pretty fair.

If you don't want stuff in plain sight, get a vestibule door installed.

[Lohman446]

Good god man. So, the cops shouldn't enforce the law when they see/hear it being broken?

What's not fair? Dumb enough to have underage drinkers, dumb enough to make too much noise = dumb enough to get caught in my book. Seems pretty fair.

If you don't want stuff in plain sight, get a vestibule door installed.

Not what I said. Its just the reasonable standard that a police officer is held to is... well nearly infallible. I have no sympathy for him, though I do see his point of view... I just don't agree with it. What I am telling him is he does not have the legal ability to stop, or the legal resources to argue it if the police enter because they had reasonable suspicion of underage drinking,

In review, I did mention I did not think police looking in the door and searching problems was unfair... let me explain.

As to the not fair. This is what I mean. If you open your door to talk to them and only then can they observe illegal behavior then have right to enter... I think its a touch unfair. If it is observable from outside - fire code, etc as you have stated.. all bets are off. I think the police looking in, to hunt problems, is a touch unfair. If it doesn't effect your neighbors, and it does not present imminent danger (ok, maybe underage drinking does, but you know what I mean) then what is the harm? Ethical hedonism. I don't care what consenting adults do, as long as it does not harm any non-participants.

[SlartyBartFast]

Not what I said. Its just the reasonable standard that a police officer is held to is... well nearly infallible. I have no sympathy for him, though I do see his point of view... I just don't agree with it.

Then I guess we share a point of view. But I don't agree with his.

They "occasionally" have parties, but they've installed a bar with taps...

As to the not fair. This is what I mean. If you open your door to talk to them and only then can they observe illegal behavior then have right to enter... I think its a touch unfair. If it is observable from outside - fire code, etc as you have stated.. all bets are off. I think the police looking in, to hunt problems, is a touch unfair.

No it isn't. They have to have a reason to be knocking at your door in the first place. Either that reason is something visible/observable from the outside, or a neighbour complained.

The "ethical hedonism" bit only works when all participants are consenting adults of the age of majority for the activity in question.

[WicKeD_WaYz]

[Lohman446]

The "ethical hedonism" bit only works when all participants are consenting adults of the age of majority for the activity in question.

I agree that they likely did not knock just for fun. Ok, I'll give you that. And well I beleive that you should obey the law I do understand the issues that some people have with having the legal responsibilities of an adult at 18, which can even go as far as to be drafted to military service, without having all the rights until you are 21. I also understand the reasoning for why this is...

[misfit]

this is my thoughts exactally, im not trying to start any trouble, and we dont get complaints about noise because our neighbors are here, and we partrol the house for noise checks and keep people off of the porch. we work hard to keep things plesent for everybody envolved, us the guests, the town, the cops. im not trying to fight for my right to party or anything, i just want to know the letter of the law so to speek, so i know where i stand and where to draw the line on things.

They have to have a reason to be knocking at your door in the first place. Either that reason is something visible/observable from the outside, or a neighbour complained

this is what im talking about.
even if we are all 21, which is often the case, i would assume if they came to try to "bust" us all they would do is check id's and leave. if there is no noise complaint then what right do they have to do that. im not being a smart *** im just curious. can they just invent a noise complant. ive heard of that happening before, i would think that a noise complaint is an annomous thing, but if they say somthing like your neighbors complained, and i say that my neighbors are here...

as far as underage goes i think there is a bit of a difference between 18 and 20, the ones here are in the upper range of that