'Lil something to share with you guys...

[fenris69]

btw thx shartley , terrific article.

[shartley]

[seekandestroy]

interviews with civialians and used up has beens is one thing but go to any instalation and ask the troops what they think.were the ones who do this stuff every day were the ones asked to lay our lives on the line i think were the ones who should be asked about our readiness level not dan rather.the army does have a recruiting problem not in quantity but in quality this can be fixed with a boost in pay.why join the army when you can make more money at burger king?the other problem we have is standards and the enforcement of them half our army is either fat or cant pass a p.t. test and no one seems to care keep in mind that the army reserve and national gaurd are factard in to these reports and lets face it they just dont cut it.ill repeat the question for army and shartley what unit are/were you in?whats your mos? dates of service? ever been in actual combat if so where?

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essayons

[This message has been edited by seekandestroy (edited 08-24-2001).]

[shartley]

seekandestroy:
WOW!

Please tell me when you said this:

<font face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">interviews with civialians and used up has beens is one thing but go to any instalation and ask the troops what they think</font>

you were NOT talking about those in the Article I posted.

If you were.. words fail me. Maybe this is an indication of another problem? Some of us have put in more time and chewed more dirt than the majority of those serving today.

We have seen the progressive decline in standards, discipline, respect, etc. And you know what? Sometimes those doing the job are a bit too close to view things correctly.

And now you want to ask Army and myself for OUR credentials? Who do you think you are? I have served in MANY units.. when you ask what unit someone served in, it only covers a short amount of time. If you spend more than one enlistment in the service, you will see MANY units.

And in fact some of us have held more than ONE MOS and designation WITHIN those MOS's. I for one was both a 13F until I attained the position of section leader, and then switched to 95B. Both MOS's found me in Instructor roles as well as normal leadership positions, daily duties and special assignments. When I left active duty, I was assigned to a Reserve Drill Sgt Battalion in TX.

And then after THAT point, my continued service to my country did not end.

I have just given you far more information than you deserve to have. I find your questions insulting and sickening. I am not going to give you stories of things I have been through, or elaborate any further than I already have.

You need to do some serious self reflecting. I will apologize for your rudeness to all other Service Members and Former ones. You may not like me as a person, or think I am full of it.... but don't you dare insinuate that YOU are the only person who knows what the deal is simply because you are currently in the service.

And DON'T ask us questions as if it is some sort of TEST we have to pass for your personal approval. We have passed our tests in the field. We have also passed our tests with our selves, our country and our families.

I will also apologize to everyone else reading this. I am sorry for going off like this..... I hope you all understand.

(added note: If I misunderstood your intention and spirit of your last post, I hope you understand my position and accept my sincerest apologies.)

[Bub3814]

i really dont have much to add here, but this was quite a compelling thread...

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~Bub~

"It ain't braggin' if you can back it up."
-Dizzy Dean

[seekandestroy]

i think you took that the wrong way but im not going to appoligize and i stand by my oppinion.

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essayons

[shartley]

[Army]

I own the 45B30, K30, and L30 MOS's, plus a 52D (hey, sometimes you need power tools!).

See my profile. From the people and ranks I deal with on a daily basis, I get a lot of backdoor info. When Pentagon personel tell me that the US military is a no-go, well, I tend to believe them and not Shinseki and his "enhanced brigade" brigade. (Light forces against tanks, what is this idiot thinking?)

Let me ask you what you do. You have grown disheartened with the system, and choose to bail instead of correcting those violations that you told us you witness. Do you do on the spots? If someone is disrespectful to the rank or uniform, do you lock their heels and dress them down? If not, why not? If the NCO's don't chew a little butt when a lower enlisted fails the standards, then the downward spiral will continue. WE are the backbone and strength of the Army, and when we fail the troops, the troops will fail you.

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Got Elves?

[seekandestroy]

army yes i do problem is the majority of the time my c.o. tells me to back off that its not that big a deal if pvt.snuffy walks from the motor pool to the company area with out his top on or spc.smith missed formation this morning.i used to be a 12b but reclassed to 62e afew years ago currently 62n
i have served as opfor at jrtc and i dont see the problems shartly pointed out bluefor for the most part does an outstanding job against every thing we through at them if you want to talk about weak military look at canada

[shartley]

Actually, I pointed out general issues. They did not involve Opfor training. So, I am a bit confused with your comments. Army was the one pointing out major training problems. However, you can not take Opfor training as a true indicator of troop and overall Military readiness.

Those are limited training exercises in a controlled environment, and for a brief period of time. It lets you know an individual company's or battalion's readiness and training against a limited opposing force.... nothing more. If you take that and think it is a true indicator of your Military's overall capability.... you are going to have problems.

And am I the only one to notice that each subsequent post seekandestroy makes, he uses increasingly poor grammar, spelling, punctuation, capitalization, and improper military terminology? I may be wrong about this, but for someone claiming to be an NCO in the United States Army and having served for 10 years, quite a bit of what he says brings doubts to my mind. And this is not nitpicking, trust me.

It is not only the BIG things, but also the little things like:

<font face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">if pvt.snuffy walks from the motor pool to the company area with out his top on </font>

[seekandestroy]

well excuse me for not being mister grammer.
now your going to call me a liar oh well i guess theres nothing i can do about that is there?the reason behind my questions that you so eloquintly declined to answer was to make a point all reagan/cold war era vets think that the moderen military is uncapable of deploying across the street.the same as world war 2 vets felt of veitnam era troops.what each group fails to realize is the world is constantly changing theres no need for a large military anymore.i hope everyone has taken a lesson from this never disagree with shartley's opinion.
www.mustangstuff.iwarp.com/images/arguing.jpg
i think this pic sums it all up.i know it applies to me also but im directing it at you

[This message has been edited by seekandestroy (edited 08-25-2001).]

[shartley]

Thank you for your post (and revamp of it).

<font face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">well excuse me for not being mister grammer</font>

That is real NCO material there.

<font face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">now your going to call me a liar oh well i guess theres nothing i can do about that is there?</font>

I never called you that, I pointed out some interesting things, of which you STILL fail to address. But as YOU put it.... there is nothing I can do about that.

<font face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">the reason behind my questions that you so eloquintly declined to answer was to make a point all reagan/cold war era vets think that the moderen military is uncapable of deploying across the street.the same as world war 2 vets felt of veitnam era troops</font>

Actually this is not quite accurate, sorry.

And evidently you missed all the briefings after the Gulf War about Military Downsizing? I know they gave classes and briefings to ALL Military personnel as to the history of Military Downsizing from WWI to present times, and how EVERY time they did this, they downsized TOO much.

And this directly caused problems with EVERY major engagement thereafter. THEN they had to do a mad rebuild to bring at least Basic Troop Strengths up to the appropriate levels (let alone proper training). But then directly after the conflicts were over, they did the SAME thing all over again. But the funny part is (or not so funny), during the cycle before, it was always stated that it would NEVER happen again.

<font face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">what each group fails to realize is the world is constantly changing theres no need for a large military anymore.</font>

Those who fail to remember their History are doomed to repeat it. Your statement was said after every major conflict since WWI.

<font face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">i hope everyone has taken a lesson from this never disagree with shartley's opinion.</font>

Again you are wrong. Sorry. I don't mind people disagreeing with me, but what I DO mind is people who just don't make sense, or provide any proof or logical arguments for their statements.

You have provided neither proof, nor logic, and that is not my fault. You have had ample time to rebut any and all of my comments...but you failed to do so. But it is easier to point to me and say I am the one who is wrong..... but provide no evidence to back it up.

<font face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">i think this pic sums it all up.i know it applies to me also but im directing it at you</font>

[Army]

Case in point, #1) 1950; No troop ships were available for 2 months after North Korea invaded the south. Why? they had all been mothballed or sold to merchants or scrapped after WWII.

#2) 1969, South Vietnam; air delivered bombs of all weights came into short supply for a brief time. Why? No new ones had been loaded since 1946.

#3) 1979, USA; All military FTXs were cancelled due to lack of fuel and spare parts.

#4) 1993-4-5 Bosnia-Herzegovina; Self transport and deployment of Apache helicopters reached 32% at best due to mass breakdowns. Why? Lack of training, spare parts, skilled pilots and no clear plan on deployment/usage.

#5) 1995-6-7 Somalia; 18 dead Rangers, 32 wounded Rangers. 4 dead Delta, 13 wounded Delta. 2 dead pilots, 1 captured pilot, 1 dead US soldier dragged through the streets by mobbing criminals. Why? Lack of military service and knowledge by the draft dodger Bill Clinton, who surrounded himself with like minded and untrained advisors.

Okay hero, convince me the world has changed. It is still a very dangerous place where GIs die fighting with less than minimum support. Prove me wrong, stud.

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Got Elves?

[hitmanng]

Ok back to the VV my uncle was a cook in Vietnam. All he got out of it was a nasty smoking habit.
Hitmanng
Sorry needed a little humor I thought.

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Issha zetsumei -- The original "one shot, one kill"

[bofh]

<font face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by shartley:
... And evidently you missed all the briefings after the Golf War about Military Downsizing? ...</font>

Golf War? Did I miss something again? I'm sure I would have noticed if a bunch of angry plaid wearing golf pros started a revolt. Even more so, since they'd be in divisions of four.

But I guess this action could have been something that we did overseas, the kind of stuff that never gets on CNN. The kinda of undeclared war against the PRC, or the PGA, that you read about in books that have the disclaimer at the end about this never happened.

Well, I've had enough of these golfers, stomping over the rights of the other sports. And damn them for even thinking about plaid pants. I say we should push our troops all the way to St. Andrews and finish the job, like we should have during the war. And we wouldn't be subject to their threats and posturing anymore.

Together, we can stop this menace from taking over and corupting the purity of our natural bodily fluids...

Better Dead than Plaid!

(yes, it's all a joke