Firearm enthusiasts

[SCpoloRicker]

Do you already own a shotgun? That's a far better home defense weapon.

/back to handguns, sorry

[Steelrat]

As far as feel I really like the way the USP fits in my hand. I am hoping I will be able to find a slip on grip for it....With the clip full its got nice weight and balance , but as it empties becomes nose heavy. I guess its one way or the other when considering composite frames vs. metal ones.
I haven't really looked into Sigs, don't know what an SA is, and thought Kimber and Colt 1911's to be well out of my price range. I really like the Commander but hey it isn't a benchmark because it sucks. I am on a fine line in between what I will spend on a firearm and the quality of said piece when also considering every day usefullness.
I plan on using this primarily for in home (etc.) defence and want the projectile to carry the weight to take down a bear if need be...or a bear of a man as the case may warrent

Well, you can get a nice smith and wesson 45 for about $800, but I don't recommend a 1911 style gun for home defense. You want something simple and reliable. A glock is a good choice, as is the HK and Sig, keeping in mind my previous caveat about sig .40s.

But like Ricker said, the best thing for home defense is a shotgun, as it is easy to hit with, has limited penetration, and is intimidating as hell.

[Army]

Magazine, not clip.

[starchief1959]

Well, you can get a nice smith and wesson 45 for about $800, but I don't recommend a 1911 style gun for home defense. You want something simple and reliable. A glock is a good choice, as is the HK and Sig, keeping in mind my previous caveat about sig .40s.

But like Ricker said, the best thing for home defense is a shotgun, as it is easy to hit with, has limited penetration, and is intimidating as hell.

How is a 1911 not simple? Or reliable at that? Pull the slide back, remove the pin and the entire gun comes apart. The military always uses weapons that are simple. I don't say the military always uses reliable weapons because there have been times where an unreliable weapon was released for military use and it's caused the lives of our soldiers (IE- M16), but this was always a reliable weapon from the original use in military weaponry. Minimal moving/wearable parts and extrememly reliable. I've put 1,000's of rounds through mine and have NEVER had a jam. It shoots consistently with practically any round and is a decent weight too. And it's a Rock Island Armory, not a name brand colt. Only run me $300 - $400. Don't remember because it's been some time since I bought it.

Back to punkncat. You are going to recieve suggestions from about any manufacturer and make out there. Depending on the luck of the draw with various weaponry and personal use, everyone likes diferent styles. The best way to find what you're looking for is to try out various pistols and find which suits you the best.

[Steelrat]

How is a 1911 not simple? Or reliable at that? Pull the slide back, remove the pin and the entire gun comes apart. The military always uses weapons that are simple. I don't say the military always uses reliable weapons because there have been times where an unreliable weapon was released for military use and it's caused the lives of our soldiers (IE- M16), but this was always a reliable weapon from the original use in military weaponry. Minimal moving/wearable parts and extrememly reliable. I've put 1,000's of rounds through mine and have NEVER had a jam. It shoots consistently with practically any round and is a decent weight too. And it's a Rock Island Armory, not a name brand colt. Only run me $300 - $400. Don't remember because it's been some time since I bought it.

Frankly, I'm tired of the 1911 people getting all up in arms whenever I mention the gun's deficiencies. I love shooting 1911s, but frankly, there are much better choices for carry weapons, especially for someone who doesn't train intensively with a weapon. I made no mention of reliability, just simplicity of operation. Anything that requires the hammer to be cocked and safeties to be toggled off is just going to be more complex than something like a glock (point and shoot), and will therefore be more liable to failure in a panic situation.

And get your facts on the M16 straight before you go off on a tantrum about weapon realiability. The M16 isn't an unrealiable weapon. Other than needing a chrome lined barrel, the only real initial deficiency was operator training, not the weapon itself.

[PyRo]

If you want somthing simple, just get a revolver. It doesn't get much simpler then that.

[Steelrat]

If you want somthing simple, just get a revolver. It doesn't get much simpler then that.

Very true, though things go south when it comes to reloading.

[SCpoloRicker]

Magazine, not clip.

[starchief1959]

Frankly, I'm tired of the 1911 people getting all up in arms whenever I mention the gun's deficiencies. I love shooting 1911s, but frankly, there are much better choices for carry weapons, especially for someone who doesn't train intensively with a weapon. I made no mention of reliability, just simplicity of operation. Anything that requires the hammer to be cocked and safeties to be toggled off is just going to be more complex than something like a glock (point and shoot), and will therefore be more liable to failure in a panic situation.

And get your facts on the M16 straight before you go off on a tantrum about weapon realiability. The M16 isn't an unrealiable weapon. Other than needing a chrome lined barrel, the only real initial deficiency was operator training, not the weapon itself.

I'm not all up in arms, just stating facts. And he's not looking for a carry weapon, just something for in home defense. And read your original post, I quote "but I don't recommend a 1911 style gun for home defense. You want something simple and reliable." Therefore you did say the 1911 is unreliable. Besides if you think having to cock a weapon is complex, you need to go back to popguns. The 1911 has an additional safety in the dove tail, but otherwise has an excellent fail safe safety on the body which is the same as many other manufactures safety systems. I'm not telling him he has to buy one, he asked opinions and I stated mine.

And as far as the M16, the initial soldier model (XM16E1) being experimental to begin with, the bore and chamber initially had no chroming causing jams. There were cases in which the weapon would jam leaving the soldier unarmed and causing him his life. I have my facts straight, you only have half of them. The M16 was also initially not issued with proper cleaning and maintenance kits causing problems. Though this was not at fault of the weapons design it did cause further downfall in the view of the soldiers. This led to the update and use of the M16A1.

Don't tell me to get my facts straight when you are wrong. If you would like me to back this up with physical proof just ask and I can get you books on the M16 describing exactly what I have just described to you.

And by the way, it was the M14 which required the barrel chroming.

[Steelrat]

I'm not all up in arms, just stating facts. And he's not looking for a carry weapon, just something for in home defense. And read your original post, I quote "but I don't recommend a 1911 style gun for home defense. You want something simple and reliable." Therefore you did say the 1911 is unreliable. Besides if you think having to cock a weapon is complex, you need to go back to popguns. The 1911 has an additional safety in the dove tail, but otherwise has an excellent fail safe safety on the body which is the same as many other manufactures safety systems. I'm not telling him he has to buy one, he asked opinions and I stated mine.

I phrased it poorly, but the reliable part was not a slam against the 1911, but rather other guns. It just happened to be in the same sentence I spoke about the 1911. And if you think engaging in a gun fight is a simple matter of calmy clicking off safeties and cocking hammers, I suggest you never, ever carry a weapon that you might have to use to defend yourselves or others. Go back to reading Guns and Ammo and blindly worshipping the 1911 with the rest of the cool-aid drinkers. Great gun, yes. Super special bestest gun EVAR, no.

And as far as the M16, the initial soldier model (XM16E1) being experimental to begin with, the bore and chamber initially had no chroming causing jams. There were cases in which the weapon would jam leaving the soldier unarmed and causing him his life. I have my facts straight, you only have half of them. The M16 was also initially not issued with proper cleaning and maintenance kits causing problems. Though this was not at fault of the weapons design it did cause further downfall in the view of the soldiers. This led to the update and use of the M16A1.

Don't tell me to get my facts straight when you are wrong. If you would like me to back this up with physical proof just ask and I can get you books on the M16 describing exactly what I have just described to you.

And by the way, it was the M14 which required the barrel chroming.

Wow, I guess the bore isn't part of the barrel now. Oh, wait a minute:

Bore-the inside diameter of a hole, tube, or hollow cylindrical object or device, such as a bushing or bearing, engine cylinder, or barrel of a gun.

I guess you thought I was talking about chroming the outside of the barrel when I ALREADY mentioned that the barrel (i.e., bore) on the M16 wasn't chromed.

Next time, try to use something other than Wikipedia for your information.

[Al_Steel]

For your stated use the H&K USP is good choice. For that price it's not bad at all. It's got great reliability, it's accurate enough for your purposes, and it's a high quality firearm.

That said I STRONGLY suggest that you take it out and shoot several rounds through it before you purchase it. When talking about selecting a firearm people get all caught up in the brand name and caliber size debate and miss the single most important aspect of firearm selection and that is FIT. If the gun doesn't feel good in your hand, point naturally, and you are comfortable with the recoil then your are never going to shoot it as well as one that does. In addition to that your range time will be limited making you less proficient with the firearm. A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .45.

If you are truly looking for a firearm for home defense then you want something that points naturally, is dead nuts reliable, acceptably accurate (by that I mean able to hit a piece of notebook paper everytime you pull the trigger at 21 feet) and something you will practice regularly with. For caliber, generally .380 and over will suit your needs.

Speaking of practice, if you don't plan to get much range time then an autoloading pistol is NOT a good choice. A revolver is a much better choice because there are no safeties to fumble with, no slides to rack, no magazines to jam up, you just point and pull. If it goes "click" instead of "bang!" you just pull the trigger again. No tap-roll-rack, no flick this lever, no need for fine motor skills that go out the window in the stress of a shooting situation.

A shotgun is a fine choice for home defense as well BUT accuracy still counts. At average home defense distances (7 feet), the spread on #1 shot (the smallest shot size you should use for home defense) from even a bore choke will only be a few inches. So don't expect to get a free pass on accuracy just b/c you are using a scattergun. One of the biggest fallacies that I hear continually is the "intimidation factor" of a shotgun. An irrational intruder, especially one hopped up on drugs, has little fear of a shotgun being "racked".

As far as 1911's go, I love mine. It's a Springfield 1911 GI. It has zero reliability issues with quality ammo. It's usually when people start "tightening up" a 1911 that they get picky about ammo and maintenance. A gun that puts rounds on top of each other at the range may not be the best choice for home defense. It does take some getting used to if you need it in a high stress environment b/c of the array of safety features, but the same can be said of any firearm.

If given the choice in the middle of the night between my .45, my Glock 19, Mossberg 500 12ga, or .357 S&W revolver, I'd take the Smith in a heartbeat. It's gonna go bang everytime I pull the trigger plus I have no safeties, slides, magazines, etc. to mess about with. Also, if I need more than 6 shots I've got more than 6 intruders.

For brands, all of the ones that have been suggested are excellent choices in handguns.

-H&K, SIG, Glock, Springfield, Smith & Wesson, Beretta, Taurus, Kimber all make quality handguns that are excellent choices for home-defense.
-.380 is probably as low as you would want to go in round selection. 9mm should be your starting point though.

Bear in mind that there are DOZENS of other factors involved when considering using a firearm for home defense. Namely, other inhabitants, closeness of your neighbors, layout of your home, etc.

Good Luck and Stay Safe!

Oh, and on the M16 point. The original M16/XM16E1 was dismal in it's inititial introduction in Vietnam. It was a combination of several failures in military procurement decisions rather than weapon design that contributed to the M16's introductory problems. It was a cost cutting measure to not have the barrel chome lined. In addition to that, military brass chose not to purchase "smokeless powder" rounds for the gun. In testing in the states, this combination was not a problem. In the hot, damp jungles of Vietnam the combination of high sulfur powder with a unlined barrel would corrode the barrel so badly that the bolt would sometime fuse to the barrel chamber. Also, the sulfur residue from the powder would clog the gas returns. The army quickly fixed these problems by chroming the chamber and barrel bore (M16A1), issuing cleaning kits and instructions on how to properly maintain the weapon in the field. Once they did that the problem went away. Unfortunately the stigma of the M16 being unreliable stuck to it like glue. In reality, you will be hard pressed to find a better weapon than the M16A2. It's reliable, simple to maintain, lightweight, and infinitely customizable to fill a variety of roles. The 5.56mm round may not be the best manstopper in the world, but it's size and weight make it a better choice in a fieldable weapons package than the heavier 7.62mm of the AK47.

[starchief1959]

Again, you jump to conclusions. I said, and again I quote "I have my facts straight, you only have half of them." You only stated the barrel. Also, I never said that the bore and the barrel weren't the same. I was just including the chroming of the chamber. You really need to settle down and take a chill pill before replying to these posts. And Kool-Aid drinkers eh? I'm 25 and have been using various firearms since I was about 6 or 7. I don't read magazines for my information, I test various weapons to find what suits me best. I never said the 1911 was the best, just that in MY opinion I find it to be a simple and reliable weapon.

It's people like you who get off on trying to prove to the world that you're right and the sky is green instead of blue. Always forcing your opinions down peoples throats. I stated my opinion in my first post, why can't you let it be that and state your opinion.

Have you not noticed that I'm not tearing down your precious Sigs or you H&K? I don't care for them, SO WHAT. That's your opinion. What does my opinion matter on you choice of weapon when it's punkncat who's asking for information?

I phrased it poorly, but the reliable part was not a slam against the 1911, but rather other guns. It just happened to be in the same sentence I spoke about the 1911. And if you think engaging in a gun fight is a simple matter of calmy clicking off safeties and cocking hammers, I suggest you never, ever carry a weapon that you might have to use to defend yourselves or others. Go back to reading Guns and Ammo and blindly worshipping the 1911 with the rest of the cool-aid drinkers. Great gun, yes. Super special bestest gun EVAR, no.



Wow, I guess the bore isn't part of the barrel now. Oh, wait a minute:

Bore-the inside diameter of a hole, tube, or hollow cylindrical object or device, such as a bushing or bearing, engine cylinder, or barrel of a gun.

I guess you thought I was talking about chroming the outside of the barrel when I ALREADY mentioned that the barrel (i.e., bore) on the M16 wasn't chromed.

Next time, try to use something other than Wikipedia for your information.

[Steelrat]

Again, you jump to conclusions. I said, and again I quote "I have my facts straight, you only have half of them." You only stated the barrel. Also, I never said that the bore and the barrel weren't the same. I was just including the chroming of the chamber. You really need to settle down and take a chill pill before replying to these posts. And Kool-Aid drinkers eh? I'm 25 and have been using various firearms since I was about 6 or 7. I don't read magazines for my information, I test various weapons to find what suits me best. I never said the 1911 was the best, just that in MY opinion I find it to be a simple and reliable weapon.

It's people like you who get off on trying to prove to the world that you're right and the sky is green instead of blue. Always forcing your opinions down peoples throats. I stated my opinion in my first post, why can't you let it be that and state your opinion.

Have you not noticed that I'm not tearing down your precious Sigs or you H&K? I don't care for them, SO WHAT. That's your opinion. What does my opinion matter on you choice of weapon when it's punkncat who's asking for information?

Okay, Mr. I-Don't-Force-Opinions-Down-Throats, why don't you go back and re-read who started this. You were questioning my post, not the other way around.

[punkncat]

That said I STRONGLY suggest that you take it out and shoot several rounds through it before you purchase it. When talking about selecting a firearm people get all caught up in the brand name and caliber size debate and miss the single most important aspect of firearm selection and that is FIT. If the gun doesn't feel good in your hand, point naturally, and you are comfortable with the recoil then your are never going to shoot it as well as one that does. In addition to that your range time will be limited making you less proficient with the firearm. A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .45.

One of the things I like most about the USP is that it feels good in my large hands and that it points naturally. I have tried several other makes/ models that didn't point well for me, and thats very important.

I am not a novice shooter, just a novice owner, if you know what I mean. I know my way around a firearm pretty well and have had some range time with several of my own pistols and rifles as well as friends. I am not worried about the recoil of a .45, actually would rather shoot it that a .357mag revolver....I really am not crazy about 6 shooters at all. I much prefer the action and capacity of "auto loaders".

As far as the 1911 is concerned, and as I said before, it hasn't been the benchmark that all other .45's are measured against for so long for no reason. They have been improved upon for certain, but anyone should be proud to have one in their collection. I have looked to the USP in favor of a 1911 because of cost and capacity. If I recall correctly the Colt only holds 7 rounds and cost up to and more than double what I am looking at.

I really appreciate the helpful comments and encourage more.

[Lohman446]

I'm going to go out on a limb here. Don't worry its pretty strong.

If you do not practice with your weapon routinely you should not carry it. That being said a good number of firearms can be made to be great carry weapons, the 1911 included, if you are willing to practice with them. There's a reason the LA SWAT team chose Kimber 1911s. There's a reason that many military forces choose HK pistols. As long as you have a high quality weapon that oyu are confident, familiar, comfortable and reasonably accurate with you have a decent gun. Add stopping power to it and your doing even better, but thats an afterthought to the other concerns.