Must read this.

[Buff]

If it wasnt for all the allied troops that fell in europe in WWII, we would probably speak german now and live in a dictatorship where freedom is a luxury.

Try Russian......we'd all be speaking Ruskie

[Armory]

Try Russian......we'd all be speaking Ruskie

Actually no, Germans would have been able to direct more force into Russia with out having to support 3 fronts ans only 2 (Africa and Eastern, though Africa may have been won by Germany early).

Any way lets not focus on why we are in our current situation but rember that we all stand behind the troops that so readily defend this country reguardless of the cause.

[tropical_fishy]

From my former-soldier corner: Someone protesting does not in any way make me feel supported at all, it degrades my efforts and is detrimental to my morale. It is more insulting that people claim they support you while undermining you.

Not political, just from the heart.

Just out of curiousity, why? I really REALLY disagree with the war in Iraq, and I've protested it, but I've never shown ANY disrespect towards anyone in any part of the military. I did, in fact, meet a very nice marine on the train the other day. I guess I've always seen it as analogous to the "anti-gay" people; as long as they aren't telling me I'm going to Hell, or that God hates me and I'm evil, I'm all for them having their opinions and expressing them as they see fit, even if it IS in a parade against homosexuality. I'm not in the military, but as long as people aren't saying YOUR actions are evil, immoral, etc, then why take it personally? If you're secure in your choices, why let people who don't agree undermine them? If I were to stand here and say I don't agree with violence or war, and my idea of "supporting our troops" is to want them home, would that bother you?

I guess I just don't understand why people disagreeing with your choice of career (you've fought for people to be allowed to disagree) is enough to make you question everything.

[Recon by Fire]

Tropical_Fishy;

Most times I am in agreement with a QFT line in the movie Blackhawk Down; "They don't understand". Certainly everyone is free and welcome to fell however they wish concerning whatever topic. I likely won't explain this well but let me try; it does not matter what location, what the reason, the politics, etc...none of that matters. Put yourself in SHTF situation and all you have in this world is yourself and the men around you. The guy next to you, you might actually not care for at all or even hate. But when it counts you will do anything to bring him through it and he will do the same for you. Your life is literaly in the hands of another, do you trust them? We do. There exists a bond of comradery, ANY negative detraction from your accomplishments and efforts is more of an insult than any protestor who believes they are for the troops could ever comprehend.

[Beemer]

Tropical_Fishy;

Most times I am in agreement with a QFT line in the movie Blackhawk Down; "They don't understand".

True but some do and we are more then you think.


The Sands of Christmas

by Michael Marks.


I had no Christmas spirit when I breathed a weary sigh,
And looked across the table where the bills were piled too high.

The laundry wasn't finished and the car I had to fix,
My stocks were down another point, the Dolphins lost by six.

And so with only minutes till my son got home from school
I gave up on the drudgery and grabbed a wooden stool.

The burdens that I carried were about all I could take,
And so I flipped the TV on to catch a little break.

I came upon a desert scene in shades of tan and rust,
No snowflakes hung upon the wind, just clouds of swirling dust.

And where the reindeer should have stood before a laden sleigh,
Eight Hummers ran a column right behind an M1A.

A group of boys walked past the tank, not one was past his teens.
Their eyes were hard as polished flint, their faces drawn and lean.

They walked the street in armor with their rifles shouldered tight,
Their dearest wish for Christmas, just to have a silent night.

Other soldiers gathered, hunkered down against the wind,

To share a scrap of mail and dreams of going home again.

There wasn't much at all to put their lonely hearts at ease,
They had no Christmas turkey, just a pack of MREs.

They didn't have a garland or a stocking I could see,
They didn't need an ornament-- they lacked a Christmas Tree.

They didn't have a present even though it was tradition,
the only boxes I could see were labeled "ammunition."

I felt a little tug and found my son now by my side,
He asked me what it was I feared, and why it was I cried.

I swept him up into my arms and held him oh so near
and kissed him on the forehead as I whispered in his ear

There's nothing wrong my little son, for safe we sleep tonight,
Our heroes stand on foreign land to give us all the right,

To worry on the things in life that mean nothing at all,
Instead of wondering if we will be the next to fall.

He looked at me as children do and said its always right,
to thank the ones who help us and perhaps that we should write.

And so we pushed aside the bills and sat to draft a note,
to thank the many far from home, and this is what we wrote:

God Bless You all and keep you safe, and speed your way back home.
Remember that we love you so, and that you're not alone.

The gift you give you share with all, a present every day,
You give the gift of liberty and that we can't repay.

[Recon by Fire]

True but some do and we are more then you think.

yes, and there are many who claim they know but have never "been there, done that" so the claim is rather unfounded. It's impossible to say either way and have it apply as a blanket statement. It is purely individual thing and of course opinions vary!


Somewhat related: Recently a large number of us "BW cowboys" (LOL) were staying at a hotel. We learned that a group just checked in also that were "Iraq War Vets Against the War". My first thought was: "Should make for an interesting night in the hotel bar." My second thought was that this groups stance seemed so out of line to me (based on my personal feelings stated prior).

The hotel manager is a big supporter of ours and she told us that this group lied to her when making their reservations. I guess they listed themselves as "Vets for Vets". Rather than throw them out on the street upon arrival, she still honored their reservations but advised them of our group there and they should remain low key and if not there will be no choice in the matter and their group would be the ones evicted should there be any trouble. The weekend went without incident and actually I believe this other group spent their time partying and not protesting anyway.

But I did meet one of groups members; a female navy veteran who was aboard a ship in the Persian Gulf. I am proud of everyone who serves their country in any fashion and certainly do not mean to dismean anyones service, but forgive me if I will hold the opinion of our esteemed member, Army, over that of someone who was inconvenienced by the war and never actually enjoyed any Iraqi fine dust (sand). I'm sure she considered herself to be one of those that know...

[Tunaman]

Bravo! Bravo!!!!

[tropical_fishy]

yes, and there are many who claim they know but have never "been there, done that" so the claim is rather unfounded. It's impossible to say either way and have it apply as a blanket statement. It is purely individual thing and of course opinions vary!


Somewhat related: Recently a large number of us "BW cowboys" (LOL) were staying at a hotel. We learned that a group just checked in also that were "Iraq War Vets Against the War". My first thought was: "Should make for an interesting night in the hotel bar." My second thought was that this groups stance seemed so out of line to me (based on my personal feelings stated prior).

The hotel manager is a big supporter of ours and she told us that this group lied to her when making their reservations. I guess they listed themselves as "Vets for Vets". Rather than throw them out on the street upon arrival, she still honored their reservations but advised them of our group there and they should remain low key and if not there will be no choice in the matter and their group would be the ones evicted should there be any trouble. The weekend went without incident and actually I believe this other group spent their time partying and not protesting anyway.

But I did meet one of groups members; a female navy veteran who was aboard a ship in the Persian Gulf. I am proud of everyone who serves their country in any fashion and certainly do not mean to dismean anyones service, but forgive me if I will hold the opinion of our esteemed member, Army, over that of someone who was inconvenienced by the war and never actually enjoyed any Iraqi fine dust (sand). I'm sure she considered herself to be one of those that know...

I don't know if that last part was directed at me or not; I certainly don't claim to know anything... I just stated that I don't understand why you'd let other people influence you in something you claim to feel so strongly about.

I respect what] military personnel do-- honestly, truly, fully. If I believed so fully, and so intensely in something, I can only hope that I would be strong enough to be willing to put my life on the line to fight for it. BUT, I don't believe in violence; I don't think I could ever, EVER kill another human being. I don't believe in war. I have issues with institutionalized sexism; don't even tell me there isn't sexism built into the military system. I philisophically disagree with almost everything about the military, but my issue is with the MILITARY, not soldiers, or saliors, or marines, etc. I disagree with the reasoning behind the war in Iraq, but that doens't mean I don't hope with all my heart that everyone comes home safely, and without psychological damage. I think that, perhaps, that's what the "Vets for Vets" group feels; they don't want innocent Americans dying for a war they don't believe in.

[Beemer]

Hmmmm

Well I will just repeat this part again then. To you Recon Thankyou.

God Bless You all and keep you safe, and speed your way back home.
Remember that we love you so, and that you're not alone.

The gift you give you share with all, a present every day,
You give the gift of liberty and that we can't repay

And this from the first post.

Then his eye welled a tear that held no regret,
"Just tell us you love us, and never forget.
To fight for our rights back at home while we're gone,
To stand your own watch, no matter how long.
For when we come home, either standing or dead,
To know you remember we fought and we bled.
Is payment enough, and with that we will trust,
That we mattered to you as you mattered to us."
* * * * *

I don't think I could ever, EVER kill another human being. I don't believe in war.

You might be surprised at what you can do. Then again there are others doing the deeds outside the wall and we dont HAVE to.

but my issue is with the MILITARY, not soldiers, or saliors, or marines, etc.

Last I knew the Navy, Army, Airforce, Marines, Coastguard is the MILITARY.

Peace Out

[Triangle]

Last I knew the Navy, Army, Airforce, Marines, Coastguard is the MILITARY.

Peace Out

Go back and reread what fishy said.
I think you missed her point entirely.

[Beemer]

Ummmm

No No I did not.

[tropical_fishy]

No No I did not.

Yes, yes you did.

Let me lay this out for you, nice and simple-like. There are the people that make up the military, and then there is the military. Kind of like you have organs and cells, and then you have a body. The body is analagous to the military as a whole, and the cells or organs are analagous to the persons within the military. If a person decides to kill someone, you don't blame it on their spleen.

[behemoth]

Yes, yes you did.

Let me lay this out for you, nice and simple-like. There are the people that make up the military, and then there is the military. Kind of like you have organs and cells, and then you have a body. The body is analagous to the military as a whole, and the cells or organs are analagous to the persons within the military. If a person decides to kill someone, you don't blame it on their spleen.

Can we get the carpet squares and have nap-time now?

[Beemer]

Oh Boy

Yes, yes you did.

Let me lay this out for you, nice and simple-like. There are the people that make up the military, and then there is the military. Kind of like you have organs and cells, and then you have a body. The body is analagous to the military as a whole, and the cells or organs are analagous to the persons within the military. If a person decides to kill someone, you don't blame it on their spleen.

analogous

No, No I didnt.

Well its all semantics to me. Its a package deal. If you dont like a part you dont get the deal. You could change the part you dont like I suppose. Cant live with out my spleen can I?

Peace Out

[Albinonewt]

I respect what] military personnel do-- honestly, truly, fully. If I believed so fully, and so intensely in something, I can only hope that I would be strong enough to be willing to put my life on the line to fight for it. BUT, I don't believe in violence; I don't think I could ever, EVER kill another human being. I don't believe in war. I have issues with institutionalized sexism; don't even tell me there isn't sexism built into the military system. I philisophically disagree with almost everything about the military, but my issue is with the MILITARY, not soldiers, or saliors, or marines, etc. I disagree with the reasoning behind the war in Iraq, but that doens't mean I don't hope with all my heart that everyone comes home safely, and without psychological damage. I think that, perhaps, that's what the "Vets for Vets" group feels; they don't want innocent Americans dying for a war they don't believe in.

So you support the troops, but you hate the institution that they've dedicated their lives to serving, their mission, their sexism, their violence, and just about everything else? No, it doesn't work like that. A great number of people think they can "support the troops" without supporting their mission and their cause and that isn't true. Just look at what you write, you want them to come home (admirable enough) but you don't even make mention of hoping for their victory. That's why a great number of service men and women do not see these protesters as being pro them, because you're really not. You think you are, but William Hung thinks he can sing.